🚀 go-pugleaf

Howard Goldstein (hgol...@bbs.mpcs.com) wrote:
: The demo is fun and the models appear very detailed and very complex (I
: love complicated, elaborate sims!).  In a nutshell, you retail stuff, or
: manufacturer stuff, or mine stuff, or farm stuff, or all of the above. 
: There must be 50 or 60 products.  There's a stock market too.  Scenarios
: with objectives are presented.  If there's an open play option I missed
: it, but there surely must be an open play option. 

I had the good fortune to do some beta testing on Capitalism.  The beta 
was a challenging game with great graphics.  I have heard that the 
release version will have even better graphics and enchanced sound.  

The object of the game varies with the scenario.  In the open play game 
the goal is to become wealthy by developing successful strategies for 
producing, manufacturing, and marketing a wide variety of goods.  
For example, you could grow the barley to make the beer to retail in  
your stores or you could focus on just one aspect of its production.

The AI for the game seems quite smart too.  I was provide with good 
competition.  There also several configurable options to challenge a lot 
of skill levels.

I hear that the October editions of several game magazines will feature 
reviews of the game.

Kevin Twa (kt...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: I had the good fortune to do some beta testing on Capitalism.  The beta 
: was a challenging game with great graphics.  I have heard that the 
: release version will have even better graphics and enchanced sound.  

: The object of the game varies with the scenario.  In the open play game 
: the goal is to become wealthy by developing successful strategies for 
: producing, manufacturing, and marketing a wide variety of goods.  
: For example, you could grow the barley to make the beer to retail in  
: your stores or you could focus on just one aspect of its production.

: The AI for the game seems quite smart too.  I was provide with good 
: competition.  There also several configurable options to challenge a lot 
: of skill levels.

Uh, oh!  You mean there is no option for multiplayer?  Darn, this game 
really sounds neat, too.  Growing your own barley to make beer to sell?  
Nifty.  Any game which includes vertical integration is a winner with me 
(well, almost any game).

: I hear that the October editions of several game magazines will feature 
: reviews of the game.

On 25 Aug 1995, Howard Goldstein wrote:

> The demo game CAPITALISM, not the microprose thread.
> 
> This demo appeared on the Interactive Magic/DI cdrom Apache distribution. 
> If it's available elsewhere, don't ask me where that elsewhere might be! 
> 
> The demo is fun and the models appear very detailed and very complex (I
> love complicated, elaborate sims!).

Then you'll love this game. I'm helping beta-test it and it is a blast.
  
>In a nutshell, you retail stuff, or
> manufacturer stuff, or mine stuff, or farm stuff, or all of the above. 
> There must be 50 or 60 products.  There's a stock market too.  Scenarios
> with objectives are presented.  If there's an open play option I missed
> it, but there surely must be an open play option. 


Yes there is an option that you can run an open ended game. 


> I was reminded of the better aspects of A Train and AirBucks 2 -- and I
> sure don't mean to damn it with an association to the latter program, of
> course AirBucks was visually ugly kind of fell apart once you got the
> ratios and pricing right -- this sim is visually attractive with a nice
> interface and, most importantly, appears to have subtler and less
> determinative interactions than did AB2. 

I've got both A Train and Airbucks and Capitalism blows them both away.
The graphics of the game are very good and the simulation of the business 
enviroment is a real pain in the butt.(That IS meant as a compliment, not 
a gripe).

> I spoke to a tech guy at IM today, he said the manual was huge.  Keeps 
> sounding better and better  ;-> 

The manual is about 150 pages w/o pictures

> I wish the full game was ready already... 

Judging(?) from the relative lack of bugs that I've encountered I'd guess 
that you shouldn't have to long of a wait. It is worth waiting for.


						Jason Jensen

Jason Jensen <jje...@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> wrote:
>
>(re "Capitalism")
>
>Then you'll love this game. I'm helping beta-test it and it is a blast.
>
I agree-it's by far the best business/economics game I've seen.

  
> 
>
>Judging(?) from the relative lack of bugs that I've encountered I'd guess 
>that you shouldn't have to long of a wait. It is worth waiting for.
>

I've only had 1 crash in over 10 hours- far better than many games
I've paid for recently

>
Drew Fudenberg
email: fude...@fas.harvard.edu
http://fudenber.fas.harvard.edu

hgol...@bbs.mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote:

>The demo game CAPITALISM, not the microprose thread.

>This demo appeared on the Interactive Magic/DI cdrom Apache distribution. 
>If it's available elsewhere, don't ask me where that elsewhere might be! 

	It should be coming to the Net I believe.  Get to get a few bugs out of it
first.

>The demo is fun and the models appear very detailed and very complex (I
>love complicated, elaborate sims!).  In a nutshell, you retail stuff, or
>manufacturer stuff, or mine stuff, or farm stuff, or all of the above. 
>There must be 50 or 60 products.  There's a stock market too.  Scenarios
>with objectives are presented.  If there's an open play option I missed
>it, but there surely must be an open play option. 

	The open play will be in the finish product.  The demo does not have that
option.


>I spoke to a tech guy at IM today, he said the manual was huge.  Keeps 
>sounding better and better  ;-)

	It is. I have been beta testing it now for  about 4 or 5 days.   I have
pulled 2 all nighters on it, not out of need, but out of being pulled into
the game.  I have not played a game that held me like this in a very long
time.  Due to the detailed and very complex of the game.  There are some
steep learning curves to this game.  But worth it in my book for the play
value of this game is worth it.   IMHO.

>I wish the full game was ready already... 

	Well give us (as a beta tester that is) time to make sure it works right.


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 *"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" Sung by  *                       
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     ><Canter & Siegel the Bottom feeders of "Green Card" spammers>          

w...@eden.com (Alatar) writes:

>Uh, oh!  You mean there is no option for multiplayer?  Darn, this game 
>really sounds neat, too.  Growing your own barley to make beer to sell?  
>Nifty.  Any game which includes vertical integration is a winner with me 
>(well, almost any game).

I guess this brings up a point that I've never understood. Who do
people play multiplayer stuff with? Do they really enjoy playing
against random people on the Net? I'd like to play games with my
friends, but they have quite busy schedules, as do I. I thought the
major advantage of computer games vs board games is that they're
available at 1 am when you can't sleep when in general friends aren't.

Drew Fudenberg <fude...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:

>Jason Jensen <jje...@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> wrote:
>>
>>(re "Capitalism")
>>
>>Then you'll love this game. I'm helping beta-test it and it is a blast.
>>
>I agree-it's by far the best business/economics game I've seen.

	Yes this is the best (love this game), can not agree more!
>  
>> 
>>
>>Judging(?) from the relative lack of bugs that I've encountered I'd guess 
>>that you shouldn't have to long of a wait. It is worth waiting for.
>>

>I've only had 1 crash in over 10 hours- far better than many games
>I've paid for recently

	I crashed it 30 mins into the game.  Then found 2 more Critical System
(Crash) Errors in the following 2-3 days.  But then I am luck that way. ;)
I like doing things you would not think of doing with a game.  Like buying
stock from yourself to see if it can be done.  BTW  I thought I was able to.
Then when I tried again to be sure, it would net me so I tried something
else and bingo, crash 3.  ;)

	But once the bugs are out.  This is going to be one hellified game.  There
is just so much meat to it.  It is great.


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****************old-...@li.net**************************************
 *"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" as sung by *
   *      But even if I am unskilled in speech,          J. Joplin  *
     *        I am not in knowledge....... 2 Co 11:6                *
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ><Canter & Siegel the Bottom feeders of "Green Card" spammers>

Jason Jensen <jje...@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> wrote:

>On 25 Aug 1995, Howard Goldstein wrote:

>Then you'll love this game. I'm helping beta-test it and it is a blast.

	I agree. Best game I have come across in a long time. A real time killer.  I
already pulled 2 all nighters with this game. "Just one more turn"



>> I spoke to a tech guy at IM today, he said the manual was huge.  Keeps 
>> sounding better and better  ;-> 

>The manual is about 150 pages w/o pictures

	I belive the manual the beta testers got was a strip down version. Just
enouf to run the game to find the bugs. But don't hold me to it.

>> I wish the full game was ready already... 

>Judging(?) from the relative lack of bugs that I've encountered I'd guess 
>that you shouldn't have to long of a wait. It is worth waiting for.

	Test it some more. I have crashed the game 3 different ways already.  Plus
have found 5 or 6 small bugs.  But once the game is bug free. It is going to
be a hard drive keeper.


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    =====[______]  =====[______] | |   | |    [______]======
****************old-...@li.net**************************************
 *"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" as sung by *
   *      But even if I am unskilled in speech,          J. Joplin  *
     *        I am not in knowledge....... 2 Co 11:6                *
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ><Canter & Siegel the Bottom feeders of "Green Card" spammers>

Clearly Jason and Old Salt are going gangbusters on this great game.  I'm 
thrilled to hear

On Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:33:03 -0400, Jason Jensen  <jje...@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> wrote:
 : Judging(?) from the relative lack of bugs that I've encountered I'd guess 
 : that you shouldn't have to long of a wait. It is worth waiting for.

from a beta tester.  Too bad their beta tester list runneth over (I 
offered...)

Howard

In article <badger.8...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu>,
   bad...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger) wrote:
>w...@eden.com (Alatar) writes:
>
>>Uh, oh!  You mean there is no option for multiplayer?  Darn, this game 
>>really sounds neat, too.  Growing your own barley to make beer to sell?  
>>Nifty.  Any game which includes vertical integration is a winner with me 
>>(well, almost any game).
>
>I guess this brings up a point that I've never understood. Who do
>people play multiplayer stuff with? Do they really enjoy playing
>against random people on the Net? I'd like to play games with my
>friends, but they have quite busy schedules, as do I. I thought the
>major advantage of computer games vs board games is that they're
>available at 1 am when you can't sleep when in general friends aren't.

The advantage of multiplayer games is that when you and a friend(s) have the 
time it presents a unique challenge.  I am really looking forward to 
CivNet'ing with my friends.  The game AI is very important, since a game 
without good computer foes to practise and play against, as well as to add 
flavor to multi-player games is a dull game.

w...@eden.com (Alatar) wrote:


>Uh, oh!  You mean there is no option for multiplayer? 

	No, there is no multiplayer option. Or modem play (goes with out saying) But
the AI (which can control up to 7 computer players) is very powerful, smart,
and will raid your corporation if you let your guard down.


> Darn, this game 
>really sounds neat, too.  Growing your own barley to make beer to sell?  

	Not only that, you got to mine the raw (unless you buy it overseas, or from
one of the computer players) material to make glass. Then have a factory buy
the the raw (for get what the raw materials is, silica I thing but don't
hold be to it) material, and turn it in to glass. Then have another factory
buy the glass and turn it in to bottles.  That have the factory that is
making the beer buy the bottles so you can sell the bottle beer to your
retail store to sell to the public.    You should see what you got to do for
a car.  

	Now each step you set the price as you sell it to yourself (or other
computer players) and you have to worry about making a profit for each mine,
factory, and retail operation you own.  As well as supply, upgrade,
advertisement  (with advertisement you got to deal with brand awareness, and
brand loyalty,  and talking about brand, Which way do you go.  With  a
corporate Brand, Range Brand, or Unique brand) etc.  So you see (and this is
ONLY part of what you got to think about with this game.  

	No you can have a factory do more then one thing if you want. So the glass
factory could turn the silica into glass and then turn the glass in to
bottles. (If you do that, you might not be albe to  supply as if you had the
factory just produce one thing.  It's all up to how you want to do it.  A
lot of desertions making in this game)  You can also sell raw material to
the computer players, if your price is right.  So you could sell the silica,
or the glass, or the bottles, or the bottle beer.      

>Nifty.  Any game which includes vertical integration is a winner with me 
>(well, almost any game).

>: I hear that the October editions of several game magazines will feature 
>: reviews of the game.

	Well I know I am a beta tester on this game, but even with that. I will say
that this is the first game in a long time that I have pulled all nighters
with before  I realized the sun was coming up.   It keeps pulling you back
again and again.   One thing, there is a stead learning curve with this
game.  Well more then one, for each aspect of the game there is a learning
curve.  One for  farming( both crops and livestock) , manufacturing, stock,
advertising, mincing, etc, etc.   Both it is well worth it, let me tell you.


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          ______         ______  | |   | |     ______
    =====[______]  =====[______] | |   | |    [______]======
****************old-...@li.net**************************************
 *"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" as sung by *
   *      But even if I am unskilled in speech,          J. Joplin  *
     *        I am not in knowledge....... 2 Co 11:6                *
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ><Canter & Siegel the Bottom feeders of "Green Card" spammers>

Everyone is writing glowing praise for this game.  What's a discussion
without an opposing view?  =-)

Jason Jensen  <jje...@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> wrote:
>
>I've got both A Train and Airbucks and Capitalism blows them both away.
>The graphics of the game are very good and the simulation of the business 
>enviroment is a real pain in the butt.(That IS meant as a compliment, not 
>a gripe).

Well, saying that it's better than Airbucks is like saying that 
such-and-such movie is better than "Police Academy 5".  Airbucks was
one of the most boring games that I've ever played.  I really wanted
to like it, too.  I'm a big fan of transportation simulators (loved
RRT and Transport Tycoon).

A-Train was ok, but there was little depth to it.  Also, there was
no way to know if you were doing a good job or not.  You just delivered
"cargo" from place to place and bought and sold buildings.  Not much
challenge.  Nice graphics though (for its time).

I was a beta-tester for Capitalism, and I agree about a couple points.
The graphics ARE nice.  The colors are pleasant.

But here are my gripes...

I found many of the info screens to be just a bit too busy.  There was
simply TOO much information to find what you need.  Once you are a
wiz-bang at the game, it will probably be easy to filter out what you
don't need and to find what you want, but getting to that point of
expertise is a little painful.  There were so many sections where too
much info was packed into a small section.  For example, there will
be a green bar.  The length of the bar means one thing.  The width
means another.  The fact that it's green rather than red means something
else.  And there will be many of these types of things in one section.
Without a manual beside you, it's impossible to make heads or tails of
these symbols.  There will be a title to that corner of the screen
like "Radios - Gross Sales", but there will be oodles of data that is
otherwise unlabeled (other than having to do with the gross sales of
radios).

I also occasionally felt that I was looking up something in the manual
that I was reading an business/economics plan.  Quite a bit of the
manual was discussing economic and retail concepts in terms (verbiage)
that I simply didn't understand.

All that being said, I'd like to point out that no one should form
an opinion on a game simply on the remarks of on person.  And since
I'm the only one who hasn't raved about the game, perhaps you should
take my views with a grain of salt.

I'd like to take a look at the finished game.  Perhaps with a more
complete and polished manual, I'll be playing it until the wee hours.

--pat--
-- 
--pat traynor--
tra...@bostech.com

tra...@bostech.com (Pat Traynor) wrote:

>Everyone is writing glowing praise for this game.  What's a discussion
>without an opposing view?  =-)

	This is true. Please go head.

>Jason Jensen  <jje...@libby.rbls.lib.il.us> wrote:
>>
>>I've got both A Train and Airbucks and Capitalism blows them both away.
	<other stuff about A-Train and Airbucks snip>

>Well, saying that it's better than Airbucks is like saying that 
>such-and-such movie is better than "Police Academy 5".  Airbucks was
>one of the most boring games that I've ever played.  I really wanted
>to like it, too.  I'm a big fan of transportation simulators (loved
>RRT and Transport Tycoon).

>A-Train was ok, but there was little depth to it.  Also, there was
>no way to know if you were doing a good job or not.  You just delivered
>"cargo" from place to place and bought and sold buildings.  Not much
>challenge.  Nice graphics though (for its time).

	Capitalism is a game to itself.  I don't think you can compare it to any
game that has been on the market.  A specially poor games that it was
compared to. 

>I was a beta-tester for Capitalism, and I agree about a couple points.
>The graphics ARE nice.  The colors are pleasant.

>But here are my gripes...

>I found many of the info screens to be just a bit too busy.  There was
>simply TOO much information to find what you need.  Once you are a
>wiz-bang at the game, it will probably be easy to filter out what you
>don't need and to find what you want, but getting to that point of
>expertise is a little painful.

	So your saying the game is complex and there is a steep learning curve.  I
agree 100%.  I said the same thing in my comments on the game.  But on the
bright side who what's a game you master in 2 days and put on the shell in a
week?

>  There were so many sections where too
>much info was packed into a small section.  For example, there will
>be a green bar.  The length of the bar means one thing.  The width
>means another.  The fact that it's green rather than red means something
>else.  And there will be many of these types of things in one section.
>Without a manual beside you, it's impossible to make heads or tails of
>these symbols. 

	Thats why you get a manual with the game. ;)   Yes there is a ton of info to
digest with this game.  It will take you time to pick up what  everything
means, and how it relates to other things.   But once you do (figure about
2-3 days (real time) of play just to run a farm and sell your stuff to your
department store with out going bankrupt in 3 years (game time), to a week
(real time) to play so you can mine raw material convert in your factory to
a product to sell to your department store and still be playing (not being
in first place but not bankrupt) after 67 years of game play(game time).  At
least thats how it when for me.  Now if your a business major your time will
varie.

    Sorry cut off beginning of his comment.
>that I was reading an business/economics plan.  Quite a bit of the
>manual was discussing economic and retail concepts in terms (verbiage)
>that I simply didn't understand.

	Now I am no busyness major, besides they do go into what the words mean, but
I had no problem understanding the manual (word wise) They can do something
to improve it as far as explain how some stuff works or why it does.  But
then again thats what beta testing is all about.  Now I will say this game
will be above some (if not all kids) kids.  That depends on there age and
intrust.   But just like in a wargame, you would not expect them to  call a
tank "that thing that has a barrel on it and shoots stuff".  Now true most
people know what a tank is but may not know or understand what a "tender
offer" is.

>All that being said, I'd like to point out that no one should form
>an opinion on a game simply on the remarks of on person.  And since
>I'm the only one who hasn't raved about the game, perhaps you should
>take my views with a grain of salt.

	No, there will be people who will think the game is just to complex.  There
is no way you can do a game that will please everyone.  I will say, that if
you like simple stuff, you will not like this game.  For it is not simple.
Just as there was no way to make "Pacific War" a simple game without ruining
it. There is no way to make Capitalism a simple game, without running it.
IMHO.

>I'd like to take a look at the finished game.  Perhaps with a more
>complete and polished manual, I'll be playing it until the wee hours.

	Now this I must agree with.  The manual needs to be improve.  Not that the
manual is unreadable, it isn't.  But I think more info is need to grasp some
of the concepts of the game in a shorter time period.
.

Old Salt <old-...@li.net> wrote:
>tra...@bostech.com (Pat Traynor) wrote:
>
>>I found many of the info screens to be just a bit too busy.  There was
>>simply TOO much information to find what you need.  Once you are a
>>wiz-bang at the game, it will probably be easy to filter out what you
>>don't need and to find what you want, but getting to that point of
>>expertise is a little painful.
>
>So your saying the game is complex and there is a steep learning curve.  I
>agree 100%.  I said the same thing in my comments on the game.  But on the
>bright side who what's a game you master in 2 days and put on the shell in a
>week?

That's certainly true.  But I think that a game will have more success if
it doesn't start out at 100% complexity.  IMO, this is one reason why
Civilization is so popular.  At the beginning, you only have to worry
about moving settlers from place to place.  As the game progresses (and
you understand more and more), you have to be concerned with more complex
issues.

Normally, when I play a new game, I want to be able to jump right in and
get some gratification for an hour or two.  It's around that point that
I'm willing to sit down in a chair and go through some of the manual and
learn about some of the things that I didn't quite understand when I was
playing.

Manual: To increase the efficiency of the Quadra-Flampion...
Me: "Great!  I was wondering why my Quadra-Flampion was idle..."
If I'd had to sit down from the very start and read the manual, I'd have
no idea what a Quadra-Flampion was for.

What I found in Capitalism was that you were instantly thrust into (and
required to immediately understand) some screens of information that
were confusing as hell to the new user.

>But just like in a wargame, you would not expect them to  call a
>tank "that thing that has a barrel on it and shoots stuff".

Aha!  That explains why I couldn't fill my tanks with water!!  =-)

Again, this *is* the kind of game that I should like.  I'm more into
building things and establishing financial empires than killing ogres
with chain-saws.  I'll certainly give it another try once it comes
out.

--pat--
-- 
--pat traynor--
tra...@bostech.com

tra...@bostech.com (Pat Traynor) wrote:

>Old Salt <old-...@li.net> wrote:

>>So your saying the game is complex and there is a steep learning curve.  I
>>agree 100%.  I said the same thing in my comments on the game.  But on the
>>bright side who what's a game you master in 2 days and put on the shell in a
>>week?

>That's certainly true.  But I think that a game will have more success if
>it doesn't start out at 100% complexity.  IMO, this is one reason why
>Civilization is so popular.  At the beginning, you only have to worry
>about moving settlers from place to place.  As the game progresses (and
>you understand more and more), you have to be concerned with more complex
>issues.

	They are reworking  the tutorial so maybe this will help this aspect of the
game. Bring a person into the game and up to speed in a painless way.

>Normally, when I play a new game, I want to be able to jump right in and
>get some gratification for an hour or two.

	I agree (as the game is now) you can not do that in this game.  It will take
about 2 days to learn how to just manage a farm of one product and sell it
retail. But I believe the new tutorial will fix this.
 
>  It's around that point that
>I'm willing to sit down in a chair and go through some of the manual and
>learn about some of the things that I didn't quite understand when I was
>playing.

>Manual: To increase the efficiency of the Quadra-Flampion...
>Me: "Great!  I was wondering why my Quadra-Flampion was idle..."
>If I'd had to sit down from the very start and read the manual, I'd have
>no idea what a Quadra-Flampion was for.

	Wait a min.  Was that just an out of your head examples?  Or are you saying
that's in the manual?  For I never seen anything like that.

>What I found in Capitalism was that you were instantly thrust into (and
>required to immediately understand) some screens of information that
>were confusing as hell to the new user.

	Yes, that is a draw back.  But you did have the tutorial (without which I
would never even figure out how to do a farm without some reading of the
manual)  to easy your way into the game.  Plus now like I said they are
improving that to make it even easyer to pick up on the complexity of the
game.   Why I didn't even open up the manual until the second day.  I was
playing the game, but not winning.  Hell I could not even make it threw 3
years with out going bankrupt.

>>But just like in a wargame, you would not expect them to  call a
>>tank "that thing that has a barrel on it and shoots stuff".

>Aha!  That explains why I couldn't fill my tanks with water!!  =-)

>Again, this *is* the kind of game that I should like.  I'm more into
>building things and establishing financial empires than killing ogres
>with chain-saws.  I'll certainly give it another try once it comes
>out.

	I am sure once it does you will like it.  Like I said I am not saying this
game is great just due to the fact I am (I am not getting payed for this so
there is no reason for me to pander to the company) bate testing it.   There
was another game I bate tested before this and I really don't have much good
to say about that game.

tra...@bostech.com (Pat Traynor) wrote:
>
(snip)
> IMO, this is one reason why
>Civilization is so popular.  At the beginning, you only have to worry
>about moving settlers from place to place.  As the game progresses (and
>you understand more and more), you have to be concerned with more complex
>issues.
>
>Normally, when I play a new game, I want to be able to jump right in and
>get some gratification for an hour or two.  It's around that point that
>I'm willing to sit down in a chair and go through some of the manual and
>learn about some of the things that I didn't quite understand when I was
>playing.
>
>(snip)
>
>What I found in Capitalism was that you were instantly thrust into (and
>required to immediately understand) some screens of information that
>were confusing as hell to the new user.
>
>>But just like in a wargame, you would not expect them to  call a
>>tank "that thing that has a barrel on it and shoots stuff".
>
>Aha!  That explains why I couldn't fill my tanks with water!!  =-)
>

I really like this game, but I agree that it is harder to jump in to than 
Civ is. But then, so are all of the "serious" war games,like the VfV 
series. Speaking as a nonwargamer, I even found it took a while wityh 
the manual to get past the first year of the "light" wargame Clash of 
Steel. OTOH, I found Capitalism much easier. This is no doubt due to teh 
fact that I know more about business than about war, but then there may 
be a number of strategy gamers of whom this is true. 

I view Capitalism as the firest member of a new subgenre-the "serious" 
business game. Just like you cant jump in to a war game w/o already 
knowing about soft vs hard targets, supply lines, morale, and 
encirclement, Capitalism presumes some acuwaintance with business 
strategies and with financial statements. I really dont think its as hard 
to start out as operation Crusader, but I'll admit its harder than Panzer 
General.



>Then again, this *is* the kind of game that I should like.  I'm more into>>building things and establishing financial empires than =
killing ogres>with chain-saws.  I'll certainly give it another try once it comes
>out.
>
>--pat--
>-- 
>
I hope you do- I think the game repays the effort very well.

-- 
Drew Fudenberg
email: fude...@fas.harvard.edu
http://fudenber.fas.harvard.edu
-----
"...members of the corps,
  all hate the thought of war,
  they'd rather wipe 'em out by peaceful means..." Tom Lehrer
---

In article <1995Aug30.1...@bostech.com>,
Pat Traynor <tra...@bostech.com> wrote:
>Old Salt <old-...@li.net> wrote:
>>tra...@bostech.com (Pat Traynor) wrote:
>>
>>>I found many of the info screens to be just a bit too busy.  There was
>>>simply TOO much information to find what you need.  Once you are a
>>>wiz-bang at the game, it will probably be easy to filter out what you
>>>don't need and to find what you want, but getting to that point of
>>>expertise is a little painful.
>>
>>So your saying the game is complex and there is a steep learning curve.  I
>>agree 100%.  I said the same thing in my comments on the game.  But on the
>>bright side who what's a game you master in 2 days and put on the shell in a
>>week?
>
>That's certainly true.  But I think that a game will have more success if
>it doesn't start out at 100% complexity.  IMO, this is one reason why
>Civilization is so popular.  At the beginning, you only have to worry
>about moving settlers from place to place.  As the game progresses (and
>you understand more and more), you have to be concerned with more complex
>issues.
>
>Normally, when I play a new game, I want to be able to jump right in and
>get some gratification for an hour or two.  It's around that point that
>I'm willing to sit down in a chair and go through some of the manual and
>learn about some of the things that I didn't quite understand when I was
>playing.
>
>Manual: To increase the efficiency of the Quadra-Flampion...
>Me: "Great!  I was wondering why my Quadra-Flampion was idle..."
>If I'd had to sit down from the very start and read the manual, I'd have
>no idea what a Quadra-Flampion was for.
>
>What I found in Capitalism was that you were instantly thrust into (and
>required to immediately understand) some screens of information that
>were confusing as hell to the new user.
>
>>But just like in a wargame, you would not expect them to  call a
>>tank "that thing that has a barrel on it and shoots stuff".
>
>Aha!  That explains why I couldn't fill my tanks with water!!  =-)
>
>Again, this *is* the kind of game that I should like.  I'm more into
>building things and establishing financial empires than killing ogres
>with chain-saws.  I'll certainly give it another try once it comes
>out.
>
>--pat--
>-- 
>--pat traynor--
>tra...@bostech.com

I'm confused.  The tutorial was very good at introducing me to the
demo, and did the stuff you are talking about, for me.  Did you not
have it?  Or did I just pick up some business knowledge from work
without realizing it?

David Pipes

tra...@bostech.com (Pat Traynor) wrote:
>
(snip)
> IMO, this is one reason why
>Civilization is so popular.  At the beginning, you only have to worry
>about moving settlers from place to place.  As the game progresses (and
>you understand more and more), you have to be concerned with more complex
>issues.
>
>Normally, when I play a new game, I want to be able to jump right in and
>get some gratification for an hour or two.  It's around that point that
>I'm willing to sit down in a chair and go through some of the manual and
>learn about some of the things that I didn't quite understand when I was
>playing.
>
>(snip)
>
>What I found in Capitalism was that you were instantly thrust into (and
>required to immediately understand) some screens of information that
>were confusing as hell to the new user.
>
>>But just like in a wargame, you would not expect them to  call a
>>tank "that thing that has a barrel on it and shoots stuff".
>
>Aha!  That explains why I couldn't fill my tanks with water!!  =-)
>

I really like this game, but I agree that it is harder to jump in to than 
Civ is. But then, so are all of the "serious" war games,like the VfV 
series. Speaking as a nonwargamer, I even found it took a while wityh 
the manual to get past the first year of the "light" wargame Clash of 
Steel. OTOH, I found Capitalism much easier. This is no doubt due to teh 
fact that I know more about business than about war, but then there may 
be a number of strategy gamers of whom this is true. 

I view Capitalism as the firest member of a new subgenre-the "serious" 
business game. Just like you cant jump in to a war game w/o already 
knowing about soft vs hard targets, supply lines, morale, and 
encirclement, Capitalism presumes some acuwaintance with business 
strategies and with financial statements. I really dont think its as hard 
to start out as operation Crusader, but I'll admit its harder than Panzer 
General.



>Then again, this *is* the kind of game that I should like.  I'm more into>>building things and establishing financial empires than =
killing ogres>with chain-saws.  I'll certainly give it another try once it comes
>out.
>
>--pat--
>-- 
>
I hope you do- I think the game repays the effort very well.

-- 
Drew Fudenberg
email: fude...@fas.harvard.edu
http://fudenber.fas.harvard.edu
-----
"...members of the corps,
  all hate the thought of war,
  they'd rather wipe 'em out by peaceful means..." Tom Lehrer
---

rob...@access1.digex.net (Robear) wrote:

>I'm confused.  The tutorial was very good at introducing me to the
>demo, and did the stuff you are talking about, for me.  Did you not
>have it?  Or did I just pick up some business knowledge from work
>without realizing it?

	Who were you referring to with this question?  I have the tutorial in the
game, and yes it helps a lot in grasping the complexities of the game.

In article <4238v3$9...@linet02.li.net>, Old Salt <old-...@li.net> wrote:
>rob...@access1.digex.net (Robear) wrote:
>
>>I'm confused.  The tutorial was very good at introducing me to the
>>demo, and did the stuff you are talking about, for me.  Did you not
>>have it?  Or did I just pick up some business knowledge from work
>>without realizing it?
>
>	Who were you referring to with this question?  I have the tutorial in the
>game, and yes it helps a lot in grasping the complexities of the game.
>

I was referring to the guy who I thought posted it; he had trouble figuring
out the terms and invented some weird thing as an example.  What I was
wondering was whether having some practical business knowledge, things like
knowing what some economic and business terms mean, might be an advantage
in learning the game.  I found the tutorial to be clear and fast, and put
together a good set of department stores in the demo pretty quickly, although
my farming and manufacturing attempts bombed.  But I think I know why now.

Can't wait for the real game!  Will you let us know if you hear a date?

David Pipes

Robear <rob...@access1.digex.net> wrote:
>Pat Traynor <tra...@bostech.com> wrote:
>
> [ I found the game difficult to learn... ]
>
>I'm confused.  The tutorial was very good at introducing me to the
>demo, and did the stuff you are talking about, for me.  Did you not
>have it?  Or did I just pick up some business knowledge from work
>without realizing it?

Yes, I did have the tutorial, and I did go through about 2/3rds of it
before throwing in the towel.

I thought that the tutorial WAS well done.  I liked the explainations
that were enclosed in a box that pointed to the item being explained.
The problem that I had were that the basic items that were explained
were buried in an info/menu screen that had a ton of other information.
So I was able to go through the tutorial and it made lots of sense at
the time, but when I was trying it myself without the help of the 
tutorial, I had a bear of a time finding those important facts and
controls in those screens.

I'm sure that once I understand it all, it'll be much easier to filter
out the unnecessary data.

Also, perhaps you DID understand the concepts more intuitively with
some business background.  I have none, so those words meant nothing
to me.

--pat--
-- 
--pat traynor--
tra...@bostech.com

In article <1995Aug31.1...@bostech.com>,
Pat Traynor <tra...@bostech.com> wrote:
>Robear <rob...@access1.digex.net> wrote:
>>Pat Traynor <tra...@bostech.com> wrote:
>>
>> [ I found the game difficult to learn... ]
>>
>>I'm confused.  The tutorial was very good at introducing me to the
>>demo, and did the stuff you are talking about, for me.  Did you not
>>have it?  Or did I just pick up some business knowledge from work
>>without realizing it?
>
>Yes, I did have the tutorial, and I did go through about 2/3rds of it
>before throwing in the towel.
>
>I thought that the tutorial WAS well done.  I liked the explainations
>that were enclosed in a box that pointed to the item being explained.
>The problem that I had were that the basic items that were explained
>were buried in an info/menu screen that had a ton of other information.
>So I was able to go through the tutorial and it made lots of sense at
>the time, but when I was trying it myself without the help of the 
>tutorial, I had a bear of a time finding those important facts and
>controls in those screens.
>
>I'm sure that once I understand it all, it'll be much easier to filter
>out the unnecessary data.
>
>Also, perhaps you DID understand the concepts more intuitively with
>some business background.  I have none, so those words meant nothing
>to me.
>
>--pat--
>-- 
>--pat traynor--
>tra...@bostech.com

Makes sense.  They probably should redo it, then.  It is *very* much
fun, even the demo, with the parts that I was able to do well with.

David Pipes

rob...@access5.digex.net (Robear) wrote:

>In article <4238v3$9...@linet02.li.net>, Old Salt <old-...@li.net> wrote:

>>	Who were you referring to with this question?  I have the tutorial in the
>>game, and yes it helps a lot in grasping the complexities of the game.
>>

>I was referring to the guy who I thought posted it; he had trouble figuring
>out the terms and invented some weird thing as an example.

	I agree with that. I had no trouble figuring out the game from the tutorial.
Well at least not enough to stop me from playing it.  But from my
understanding they are reworking the tutorial to make it even easier to
learn the game.

>  What I was
>wondering was whether having some practical business knowledge, things like
>knowing what some economic and business terms mean, might be an advantage
>in learning the game. 

	This I will have to say yes.  One of the beta testers has a knowledge of
business (economics major at harvard) and has picked up on the game much
faster then myself. 

> I found the tutorial to be clear and fast, and put
>together a good set of department stores in the demo pretty quickly, although
>my farming and manufacturing attempts bombed.  But I think I know why now.

	I also  found it took longer to master farming and manufacturing.  But now
(in one game) I control all eggs (whole sale) sold in the country, as well
as being number one with sales of other farm products.

>Can't wait for the real game!  Will you let us know if you hear a date?

	Well do!


                                 ___   ___
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****************old-...@li.net**************************************
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   *      But even if I am unskilled in speech,          J. Joplin  *
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rob...@access5.digex.net (Robear) wrote:


>Makes sense.  They probably should redo it, then.  It is *very* much
>fun, even the demo, with the parts that I was able to do well with.
>

	Did not know where to stick this, so this look like a good spot as any.
Since it does deal with them making the game even easier.  I have had the
final beta now for about 4 or 5 days.  And they have redone the tutorial
making it easer to learn.   As well as (I have mention it else were in this
newsgroup) giving you a chouse of how hard or easy to make the game.

	Well I now have found out why the demo is taking longer then It should of.
They are adding in to the game the ability to hire some one to do the micro
management.   So learning the game will be even more easier. As well as, for
people like me who hate micro management, giving you the ability to
concentrate on the aspect of the game you want to and let the AI deal with
some of the work.   Now this can be turn off for you control freaks out
there. ;)  Or just to make the game harder for those of you who find it to
easy.

	The more I see of this game, the more I like.  Have not been this worked up
over a game since Harpoon first came out.

	Ok I just got the patch for Capitalism, for the final beta version.  They
have add some really neat things in to this great game to make it even
better.

	For one, you can now hire a person to work for you.  He/She becomes
President of the company, you are still CEO.  Now you can tell this computer
person what firms to run.  You can have him run one dept store or all dept
stores in a city or all dept stores in the country or only some of them. You
pick which ones he is to run.. Same goes for mines, farms, factories, etc.
He will take care of such things as when to advertise and what to advertise.
What to purchase, etc, etc.   Also you have more then one person to chose
from to hirer.  And they are all different.  Also they will ask for a raise,
and if not give to them (you can try to bring what he is asking for down
lower) he may just quit on you.    You can also fire him, and you can see
how he feels about you, on a personal level.

	There is now also the following that has been added to the game:
Friendly mergers  for computer players only
Price wars
Plus a few other things,  that makes this game even better then it was
before.  And before I though it was great.

	BTW, the release date I have been told (this is what they are shooting for)
is Oct 10.

	As far as the demo goes, I am still waiting to hear when they are going to
U/Led it and to where.

	But as this game stands now.  I truly believe that it is a very easy game to
learn (taking it one steep at a time).  With the new tutorial, with the
ability to chose just how hard or easy you want the game to play, with the
"hire a President" to run one store or the whole shebang.  You have total
control over how you want to play this game.   So if your idea of high
finance is balancing your check book, (like me) or you are majoring in
Economics at Harvard.   This game will fit your abilities, and as you learn
you can make the game a little harder and more changing with every passing
day.   For this one will be a Hard Drive keeper, as I call them.  For I
believe you will be coming back again and again to play this one.

	I know it sound like an ad.   But  I have not been this worked up over a
game since  Harpoon.




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****************old-...@li.net**********SEAS*P-38*CK****************                                             
 *"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" as sung by *                                           
   *      But even if I am unskilled in speech,          J. Joplin  *                                        
     *        I am not in knowledge....... 2 Co 11:6                *                        
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    ><Canter & Siegel the Bottom feeders of "Green Card" spammers>