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In article <41sdnh$9...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu>,
               jma...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Joseph T. Malloy) wrote:
>In article <41rtln$d...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>
                   jmax...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jon A. Maxwell) writes:
                                                          >>Ken wrote:
           >>] Curtis Bass <cbass%int...@mhost.utmb.edu> wrote:

>>] >I buy a Gateway 2000 computer, I am FORCED to buy a copy of
>>] >MS-DOS 6.xx and Windows (for Workgroups) 3.11. I am FORCED
>>] >to choose between (MS-Office + MS-Money), and (CorelDRAW! +
>>] >other publishing tools).  Ditto (or at least similarly) for
>>] >most other PC brands.

[deleted]

>Yeah, right, like Gateway is the only provider!  Where do you live?  :)

[deleted]

>       This message is copyright 1995, Joseph T. Malloy, and may
>       not be distributed in any form by any IBM Network
>       Please report any violations to POSTM...@IBM.NET
>                  Please send *me* cash penalties!

BETA testers who lie!  --  The next Geraldo.



Bill Oconnor

Joseph T. Malloy wrote:
] >] But you are not FORCED to buy a Gateway.
] >] God. This is so simple and you just don't get it.

] >Who doesn't get it?  Hell, you aren't forced to use city water --you
] >can always catch and store rainwater, and filter the stuff out of it,
] >and add chlorine to kill germs, and add flourine to make you teeth
] >stronger, etc.  You /could/, but you aren't going to.

] Yeah, right, like Gateway is the only provider!  Where do you live?  :)

In my analogy, Gateway is /you/ buying into the city water or
local power --they /could/ go with out Microsoft, like you /could/
make your own water, but that ain't happening.

(How about using half a brain.  I guess I should have spelled it out
for you.)

] >You can generate your own electricity too, so what the heck does it
] >matter it the power company says you have to give it a key to your
] >house (or any other crazy demand, like Microsoft makes)?  You always
] >have a choice, dummy!

] And Gateway is the only supplier of PC's, right, gotcha.  (Boy, that
] Gateway must be rolling in dough with a franchise like that!)

You know a provider that doesn't agree to Microsoft's deals?  Please
Tell!  It's not that Gateway is the only supplier, but that all the
suppliers (that matter) have to agree to Microsoft's terms --they
might as well be one supplier.

] Look, the obvious thing to most people is that Gateway is just one of
] hundreds of suppliers of PC's.  You don't like the fact that they bundle
] Windows with the computers?  You look for another manufacturer.

One of hundereds, that all agree to Microsoft's terms --so you can
still shop around on the best deal, but it's still a deal where MS
gets the money for something you didn't buy (or whatever their scam
is now that the Justice Department has "warned" them).

As in, you can move to a different part of the country, but you still
have city water (just a different city!). Duh.

] If I don't like the water they city provides or the eletricity
] supplied by CMP, realistically speaking, I *don't* have a choice in
] the matter (except by byzantine ways involving a ballot box, and
] even that doesn't usually work!).

Again, for computers you don't realistically have a choice either,
because the vendors don't realistically have a choice.  Microsoft is
the monopoly, like city water.  If Gateway refuses to drink water,
they die.  Because they have no choice (realistically) neither do
you.

] It's not that hard to find a vendor who will accomodate your
] special need in the PC world.

Please give me an example of one that does not agree to Microsoft's
terms (as in, in the past, making you pay for DOS/Win even though you
don't want it or now, well, I hear it is something like they have to
agree to share patents or something).

] 	This message is copyright 1995, Joseph T. Malloy, and may
] 	not be distributed in any form by any IBM Network
] 	Please report any violations to POSTM...@IBM.NET
] 		   Please send *me* cash penalties!

See, this unoriginal copy just doesn't work;  IBM just isn't the
antichrist like Microsoft is, so people just think you're a big dummy
that spends his time playing with Little Beavis.

--
     thur  Mail Address: LordA...@vt.edu or jmax...@vt.edu
  n  r     
  a JAMax  "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent
  h o   w  instantly recognizes genius." --Complete Sherlock Holmes
  tan lle        Valley of Fear, by Sir Arthur Conan doyle

                                                       
                            
                                           

>] And Gateway is the only supplier of PC's, right, gotcha.  (Boy, that
>] Gateway must be rolling in dough with a franchise like that!)
>
>You know a provider that doesn't agree to Microsoft's deals?  Please
>Tell!  It's not that Gateway is the only supplier, but that all the
>suppliers (that matter) have to agree to Microsoft's terms --they
>might as well be one supplier.
>

Well, heres a company that does agree to Microsoft; not because they have 
too, but because they wouldn't sell very many computers without Windows 
pre-installed: IBM.  Go to a Computer City or Best Buy, walk up to an 
Aptiva.  Well jeez, its running Windows.  I wonder why.  Now if IBM were 
smart, they would have some Aptivas there with OS/2 on it.  Then Joe 
Shmoe with no computer knowledge could say, hey I want this Aptiva with 
OS/2 on it; instead of Windows.  In my opinion, this is another example 
of IBM's business incompitence.
 
>] Look, the obvious thing to most people is that Gateway is just one of
>] hundreds of suppliers of PC's.  You don't like the fact that they bundle
>] Windows with the computers?  You look for another manufacturer.
>
>One of hundereds, that all agree to Microsoft's terms --so you can
>still shop around on the best deal, but it's still a deal where MS
>gets the money for something you didn't buy (or whatever their scam
>is now that the Justice Department has "warned" them).
>
>As in, you can move to a different part of the country, but you still
>have city water (just a different city!). Duh.
>
>] If I don't like the water they city provides or the eletricity
>] supplied by CMP, realistically speaking, I *don't* have a choice in
>] the matter (except by byzantine ways involving a ballot box, and
>] even that doesn't usually work!).
>

The public water/electricity is a close analogy, but I don't think 
correct.  Hey, if you don't want to buy a PC with Windows because, "YOUR 
BEING FORCED TO," buy a fucking MAC.  Or, like in my case, I could have 
asked DELL to pre-install OS/2 with my P90.  

>Again, for computers you don't realistically have a choice either,
>because the vendors don't realistically have a choice.  Microsoft is
>the monopoly, like city water.  If Gateway refuses to drink water,
>they die.  Because they have no choice (realistically) neither do
>you.
>

No Microsoft isn't a monopoly, but yes Gateway would die if they didn't 
pre-install Windows.  Because many OS/2 idiots like you don't understand 
that most people in this world prefer Windows over OS/2.

>] It's not that hard to find a vendor who will accomodate your
>] special need in the PC world.
>


-- 
_____________________________________________________________________________
                    __________    No matter where you go,
                   /  ______  \       there you are.
                  |  |      |  |        

JORDAN  SPENSER AARON wrote:
] >You know a provider that doesn't agree to Microsoft's deals? 
] >Please Tell!

] Well, heres a company that does agree to Microsoft; not because
] they have too, but because they wouldn't sell very many computers
] without Windows pre-installed: IBM.

So, IBM is a provider that doesn't agree to MS's preloading deals? 
Were you trying to answer the question or just dilly-dallying?

] Now if IBM were smart, they would have some Aptivas there with OS/2
] on it.  Then [...]

You think IBM wouldn't have done this, if it would work?

] >] Look, the obvious thing to most people is that Gateway is just
] >] one of hundreds of suppliers of PC's.  You don't like the fact
] >] that they bundle Windows with the computers?  You look for
] >] another manufacturer.
] >
] >One of hundereds, that all agree to Microsoft's terms --so you can
] >still shop around on the best deal, but it's still a deal where MS
] >gets the money for something you didn't buy (or whatever their
] >scam is now that the Justice Department has "warned" them).
] >
] >As in, you can move to a different part of the country, but you
] >still have city water (just a different city!). Duh.
] >
] >] If I don't like the water they city provides or the eletricity
] >] supplied by CMP, realistically speaking, I *don't* have a choice
] >] in the matter (except by byzantine ways involving a ballot box,
] >] and even that doesn't usually work!).

] The public water/electricity is a close analogy, but I don't think
] correct.  Hey, if you don't want to buy a PC with Windows because,
] "YOUR BEING FORCED TO," buy a fucking MAC.

No, that's like saying I should buy bottled water --a MAC just isn't
what I want, because it doesn't run the pc games I want to play, it
doesn't run OS/2 or Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD or Mach or Plan 9 or
386BSD or NeXTstep, each of which I might want to use.  I want an IBM
PC-style computer, but I don't want Windows --why should I be made to
pay for it, even if it doesn't come preloaded?
  Back to my analogy, I want water that comes out of the faucet, that
gets to my house through pipes instead of me going out to the store
and buying it --but if the water company says they won't give me
water unless I agree to let them put a camera in my home (replace
with any other unreasonable demand), why should that be okay?

] Or, like in my case, I could have asked DELL to pre-install OS/2
] with my P90.

And pay for Windows, even if you don't have it pre-installed.

] >Again, for computers you don't realistically have a choice either,
] >because the vendors don't realistically have a choice.  Microsoft is
] >the monopoly, like city water.  If Gateway refuses to drink water,
] >they die.  Because they have no choice (realistically) neither do
] >you.

] No Microsoft isn't a monopoly, but yes Gateway would die if they didn't 
] pre-install Windows.  Because many OS/2 idiots like you don't understand 
] that most people in this world prefer Windows over OS/2.

Oh?  You know me pretty well, huh?  If anything, you could call me a
Plan 9 freak, but not an OS/2 idiot, anyhow! (Plan 9 is a new OS
developed by At&t Bell Labs that is really good, unlike the movie). 
So anyway, Gateway would die if they didn't install windows --they
have no choice (after all, why in God's name would a company agree to
MS's unreasonable demands if they didn't have to?).  And if the
people you buy from have no choice in the matter, how can you?

] >] It's not that hard to find a vendor who will accomodate your
] >] special need in the PC world.

Yet nobody can think of an example?  Nobody knows of a vendor that
doesn't agree to MS's demands?  Looks like I was right!

--
     thur  Mail Address: LordA...@vt.edu or jmax...@vt.edu
  n  r     
  a JAMax  "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent
  h o   w  instantly recognizes genius." --Complete Sherlock Holmes
  tan lle        Valley of Fear, by Sir Arthur Conan doyle

                                                       
                            
                                           

Jon A. Maxwell (jmax...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote:
: ] Yeah, right, like Gateway is the only provider!  Where do you live?  :)
: In my analogy, Gateway is /you/ buying into the city water or
: local power --they /could/ go with out Microsoft, like you /could/
: make your own water, but that ain't happening.

How about this.. You go to a COMPUTER show.. buy you're own motherboard, 
you're own powersupply, videocard, etc.. you never have to TOUCH ms-dos 
OR windows. Microsoft has nothing to do with you. 

I guess folows some form of Darwinism. If you're too stupid to assemble 
your own computer from the ground up using basic parts, you eather A: 
SHouldn't have one, B: Have to put up with what pre-build computer 
manufaacturers give to you. 

And another word to Microsoft bashers... Whatthe hell do you want?? 
10,000 differant equally represented operating systems for the IBM-PC. 
How is it that Mircorsoft is all of the sudden some company set out to 
run your life and computer. Like I said you don't have to buy anything 
from microsoft. No one is making you. The only reason Microsoft is so 
huge is because A LOT OF PEOPLE BOUGHT THEIR PRODUCTS. The same huge mass 
of people who made micro-soft can also BREAK microsoft.   

: One of hundereds, that all agree to Microsoft's terms --so you can
: still shop around on the best deal, but it's still a deal where MS
: gets the money for something you didn't buy (or whatever their scam
: is now that the Justice Department has "warned" them).

: Again, for computers you don't realistically have a choice either,
: because the vendors don't realistically have a choice.  Microsoft is
: the monopoly, like city water.  If Gateway refuses to drink water,
: they die.  Because they have no choice (realistically) neither do
: you.

Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, actually.. There's Linux, a FREEEEEE 
operating system. (Which is actually only available to computer literate 
people, so again, if you don't know dick about computers, you're probably 
better off with Micrsoft anyways).  OS/2 (whish isn't as popular, but 
once it's running is pretty user firendly) DOn't forget all those DOS 
clones ou there.. DR-DOS, PC-DOS, etc. 

: ] It's not that hard to find a vendor who will accomodate your
: ] special need in the PC world.

: Please give me an example of one that does not agree to Microsoft's
: terms (as in, in the past, making you pay for DOS/Win even though you
: don't want it or now, well, I hear it is something like they have to
: agree to share patents or something).

Yeah, there's quite few suppliers wherre I live (bay area, ca) where you 
walk in,. buy a bare bones system, buy a moniter, and a hard drive, and 
tada you have a computer without windows or dos. It's really not that 
hard to find. It's also cheaper, and in the end your system is much more 
upgradable. And guess what, MICROSOFT DOESN'T RECIEVE A DIME FROM YOU.

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