🚀 go-pugleaf

The Hermit (s010...@cc.ysu.edu) wrote:

: 	It seems to me that there is one question posed by U8 that really
: _must_ be answered in U9.  In the intro, we see the Guardian holding the 
: Avatar in the palm of his hand.  Why doesn't he just crush the Avatar right
: there?  Or, alternatively, drop him onto a planet with no atmosphere?
: Obviously, the designers didn't want the Avatar to die; the sales of U8 would
: have been truly pathetic.  But I feel that they, if this will be the 
: Guardian's final appearance, must settle this once and for all.
: 	
: 	To understand this, we must also find out who the Guardian 
: really is.  While he seems bent on conquering worlds, why is he doing it?
: I read an interview with Richard Garriot in Ultima: The Avatar Adventures 
: suggesting that the Guardian was some member of a race of superbeings from 
: another dimension.  As a story element, not only is this out of tune with 
: the series, but it isn't even very good, IMHO.

: 	Also, I have heard that U9 or U10 will be the last of the series.
: If this is true, it would seem fitting to return to the series' origin.
: Why not make the Guardian the reincarnated form of Mondain?  Gives the 
: character a fitting history, suppplies his motives, and could possibly
: explain (drawing from U6) his reluctance to kill the Avatar.  As has been
: pointed out before, fallout from U1 has permeated the entire series.  I think
: that this could make for a better conclusion than "go out and kill the big
: evil superbeing".  It would be interesting if you could achieve the final
: victory in a way befitting the Avatar.   

Nah, I don't like it.  It doesn't seem right to make him Mondain.  This 
is not a soap opera.



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In <3bjekl$7...@news.duke.edu> j...@acpub.duke.edu (Jeffrey John 
Naumowitz) writes: 

>
>
>The Hermit (s010...@cc.ysu.edu) wrote:
>
>: 	It seems to me that there is one question posed by U8 that 
really
>: _must_ be answered in U9.  In the intro, we see the Guardian holding 
the 
>: Avatar in the palm of his hand.  Why doesn't he just crush the Avatar 
right
>: there?  Or, alternatively, drop him onto a planet with no atmosphere?
>: Obviously, the designers didn't want the Avatar to die; the sales of 
U8 would
>: have been truly pathetic.  But I feel that they, if this will be the 
>: Guardian's final appearance, must settle this once and for all.
>: 	
>: 	To understand this, we must also find out who the Guardian 
>: really is.  While he seems bent on conquering worlds, why is he doing 
it?
>: I read an interview with Richard Garriot in Ultima: The Avatar 
Adventures 
>: suggesting that the Guardian was some member of a race of superbeings 
from 
>: another dimension.  As a story element, not only is this out of tune 
with 
>: the series, but it isn't even very good, IMHO.
>
>: 	Also, I have heard that U9 or U10 will be the last of the 
series.
>: If this is true, it would seem fitting to return to the series' 
origin.
>: Why not make the Guardian the reincarnated form of Mondain?  Gives 
the 
>: character a fitting history, suppplies his motives, and could 
possibly
>: explain (drawing from U6) his reluctance to kill the Avatar.  As has 
been
>: pointed out before, fallout from U1 has permeated the entire series. 
 I think
>: that this could make for a better conclusion than "go out and kill 
the big
>: evil superbeing".  It would be interesting if you could achieve the 
final
>: victory in a way befitting the Avatar.   
>
>Nah, I don't like it.  It doesn't seem right to make him Mondain.  This 
>is not a soap opera.
>

I don't think the Ultima series should be made into a soap-opera either. 
 As for the origins of Guardian, try something more around these lines: 
the Avatar CREATED Guardian in one of the earlier ultima's (making you 
"daddy").  My memory is not so good, and I missed playing ultima 5-7, so 
I'm not sure if this would be a feasible plot or not.  It WOULD help to 
explain why Guardian would not outrightly kill the Avatar: he wants the 
avatar to see how powerful he has become, before destroying him (he 
wants to impress "daddy.").  That would make Guardian a child: reckless 
and single-minded, and unaware of the consequences of his/her actions.

What do you guys think?

The first thing is that Ultima 9 should, in theme, follow from the previous
games.  IV's theme was "A person or nation needs a value system."  V:
"Even a good value system can become bad if taken to extremes." VI: "This
one is not the only valid value system." VII: "Some value systems, however
are just plain wrong."  VIII: "In extreme situations, one may need to abandon
some principles for the greater good." [IMHO, VIII failed to convince on that
one, but that's what they were going for.]
Following from that, IX should say, essentially, "However, some core moral
truths can always be relied upon."
 
The second thing is that, with the CD-ROM only paradigm, Ultima 9 can be
BIG.  Properly segmented, it could be 3-6 CDs in size...enough room for
larger maps, and more of them.
 
So, how about this plot:
Act I: The avatar shows up on Britannia, with Titan powers, but too late.
It's mostly toast.  The Guardian shows up, laughs a bit, and then says he's
now going to go visit Earth.  The Avatar wanders about a devestated world.
Lord British dies in his arms.  He chats with ghosts.  Finally, he comes
across the Wisps, who express ambivalence at the destruction of the world.
They have the Avatar get for them the History of the Fall of Britannia,
a big book that details exactly what destroyed Britannia, and the events
leading up to it.  In trade for the book, they hook him up with the Time
Lord, who shows the avatar how to sacrifice his Titan Powers to go back in
time...to just after the dream sequence in Serpent Isle, but on Britannia.
 
Act II.  The Avatar goes about, trying to prevent the various froms of
destruction the book fortells, achieving only minor victories. (I.E. instead
of Cove being completely destroyed with all citizens killed, several people
including the romantic interest are evacuated before Cove is destroyed.)
As Major Side Quests, he figures how to travel between worlds.  A trip to
Serpent Isle brings Iolo and Shamino back into the party.  Another trip
back to Pagan is an option, where the Avatar can bring back a bunch of
refugees.
 
Act III: With Britannia devestated, but not completely depopulated, the
Avatar and the Guardian have their final confrontation, after which the
Avatar uses his now massive powers to Create/Open a Gate to a new planet
for everyone to move to, either dying or becoming a non-corporeal, godlike
entity in the process. (Perhaps joining Dupre as a new Law Serpent, with
the Guardian as Chaos.  Or vice versa.)
 

The Hermit <s010...@cc.ysu.edu> writes:


>	It seems to me that there is one question posed by U8 that really
>_must_ be answered in U9.  In the intro, we see the Guardian holding the 
>Avatar in the palm of his hand.  Why doesn't he just crush the Avatar right
>there?  Or, alternatively, drop him onto a planet with no atmosphere?
>Obviously, the designers didn't want the Avatar to die; the sales of U8 would
>have been truly pathetic.  But I feel that they, if this will be the 
>Guardian's final appearance, must settle this once and for all.
>	

	Ahh, but this is easy to explain.  We know from U7, that the
Guardian is roughly human sized, though very large, but clearly not
big enough to hold the Avatar in his palm.  Also, where is the rest
of his body?  The hand (and arm) shown in U7.5 & U8 is probably just
a spell.  And why didn't the Guardian dump the Avatar on a world with
no atmosphere?  Well, the Avatar was plucked from the void in the first
place...

-- 
      Jason  Hardt       |  'Uh...We're from the department of Justice,
to...@expert.cc.purdue.edu|  we're adjusting the beds...' - Bob McKenzie
     Mithril Dragon      |----------------------------------------------- 
      -==(UDIC)==-       |                UNFKNBLVBL

In article <toma.78...@expert.cc.purdue.edu>, to...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Duke Toma) writes:
> The Hermit <s010...@cc.ysu.edu> writes:
> 
> 
>>	It seems to me that there is one question posed by U8 that really
>>_must_ be answered in U9.  In the intro, we see the Guardian holding the 
>>Avatar in the palm of his hand.  Why doesn't he just crush the Avatar right
>>there?  Or, alternatively, drop him onto a planet with no atmosphere?
>>Obviously, the designers didn't want the Avatar to die; the sales of U8 would
>>have been truly pathetic.  But I feel that they, if this will be the 
>>Guardian's final appearance, must settle this once and for all.
>>	
> 
> 	Ahh, but this is easy to explain.  We know from U7, that the
> Guardian is roughly human sized, though very large, but clearly not
> big enough to hold the Avatar in his palm.  Also, where is the rest
> of his body?  The hand (and arm) shown in U7.5 & U8 is probably just
> a spell.  And why didn't the Guardian dump the Avatar on a world with
> no atmosphere?  Well, the Avatar was plucked from the void in the first
> place...
> 
> -- 
>       Jason  Hardt       |  'Uh...We're from the department of Justice,
> to...@expert.cc.purdue.edu|  we're adjusting the beds...' - Bob McKenzie
>      Mithril Dragon      |----------------------------------------------- 
>       -==(UDIC)==-       |                UNFKNBLVBL

	Actually you guys here is the real answer.  I asked Origin this
question a long time back when I finished SI.  Their answer was this.  They
said that in the ethereal void the Guardian could not HARM, at all, the Avatar. 
The Avatar was impervious to anything the Guardian could do to him...save
grabbing and whipping him into another world.  Also the reason the Guardian
did not throw him into a world with a hostile environment was because the
Guardian played upon his weakness, he loves to see his enemies suffer.  Also
have you ever wondered why the Guardian just doesn't destroy the Avatar
everytime he says.."I SHOULD KILL YOU NOW"....well that is a simple question. 
The Avatar is a being of power and the Guardian cannot harm him because of
the ethereal contrainsts.  That is why he has his minions try to kill him.  

	Besides if the Guardian did just come down and smush the Avatar the
third book of the Ultima series would suck! <G> 


	Greg Basso
	x93b...@wmich.edu

The Hermit (s010...@cc.ysu.edu) wrote:

: 	Also, I have heard that U9 or U10 will be the last of the series.

U6 was supposed to be the last...now they have already done U7 and U8
with all their sequels and extra disks, and as long as the Ultimas keep
selling I doubt they will stop them.

	Renne Tergujeff