🚀 go-pugleaf

Hartmut Schmider wrote:

> Werner Arend <de...@unknown.host.de> writes:
> 
>>W8 has a complicated attribute and skill system with too many
>>dependencies. There are skills, attributes and spell schools that
>>are nearly useless. Why have them? And an attribute and skill
>>scaling system of 1-100 doesn't make any sense. 1-20 would do
>>the same for the game and is simpler and easier to manage.
> 
> Interesting that you would find Wiz8 of all games of overdoing it with the
> attributes, skills and spells. Of all the RPG's I played I found that Wiz8
> has one of the most balanced systems as far as that is concerned. I can
> hardly remember a single spell for instance that wasn't of some use.
> 
> Comparing that, eg, with Might&Magic 6++ there's about 2/3 of the spells
> not useful for anything. I admit you have to be a bit of a fan of stats to
> like Wiz8's approach, but I really find that the stats and character
> development portion of the game are one of its overall strengths. The
> tactical combat being another.


Tactical combat? What tactical combat? You can't even more your 
characters separately - and that would be the absolute minimum
in order to speak of tactics.

Otherwise, yes I agree that W8 is better that MM 6+ regarding
skill and spell balance. But that doesn't say much.

Perhaps I should elaborate: it isn't so much a complex stats and
skills system that I object to, but the fact that everything
you do has some impact on some number. My experience
while playing W8 was that I was always thinking in stats rather
than "in character" in a role-playing fashion. In general
terms, you start to think "where do I want to get my characters,
and what do I have to do to get there most efficiently". This
makes playing the game rather mechanical. True, you can avoid
it, but the game doesn't encourage you to. The game encourages
playing-by-stats. Morrowind, MM 6 and 7 and W8 are all similar
in this.
Compare this with other games like PST, BG2, Fallout etc. There,
you only influence the numbers when you level up. You're spared
having to think in numbers while you play and can concentrate
on role-playing - and combat-efficient combat instead of
stat-driver combat.

In short, I don't like any game so far where a stat-driver style
of play can be used. And usually, it's the more stat-heavy games
that implement this.

So far, there are two games that stand out in my mind as good in
that regard: PST made creative use of so far "unimportant" attributes
to enhance roleplaying without encumbering the system with more
numbers. Deus Ex introduced a minimal-stats system that nevertheless
left most important options open for you.

> 
>>Not that W8 is the only one here. Attributes should be a means to an
>>end. Instead I see RPGs wallowing in stats for no other purpose
>>than to give the player something to think about. Well, these
>>are not the things I want to think about when playing.
> 
> I think that's really a matter of taste. Just as millions of Merkins love
> baseball out of the sole reason that they can go nuts on the stats. I guess 
> you're more the soccer kinda guy. Not much else to keep score of than the
> goals and otherwise enjoy the technique.


You see, the problem is that after 20+ years of role-playing, I
understand even complicated systems fast, and instantly notice
the most stat-efficient use of the rules. When mastering PnP
sessions, that's an asset, but if you just want to play it is
hard to constantly having to work around my brain's PnP-master
conditioning. More so if numbers are shoved at you every turn
you take.

Werner