🚀 go-pugleaf

In <1995Jan8.204940.26094@wmichgw> x93...@wmich.edu writes: 

>If you took a different approach, 2nd Ed. is *vastly* improved.  Take
>the 900+ volumes as additional, hence optional, rules.  Use the charts
>you feel work, drop those you don't like.  It adds so much variety.
>Even with the volumes, I found myself breaking the rules and creating
>new ones, for even more different characters.

Indeed... I guess my remarks all stem from the fact that with the 
particular group I played with, anything we wanted to add, we did.. and 
when TSR started releasing very large amounts of additional 2nd edition 
material, we found that not only were they inevitably going to 'abandon' 
us as far as new material (and contradictions with our material), but 
the *cost* was painful... and to keep 'current' with all of TSR's 
products, you almost need to own it ALL.. and there was just no way.. so 
perhaps it's easier to say that me and my playing group just outgrew TSR 
as a source for new material, and largely used their 1st edition base as 
a basis for our gaming.

>I went from D&D -> AD&D -> AD&D2.  I went from die rolls -> more die
>rolls -> role-playing (when I reached AD&D2).  To me, all those rules
>gave the characters extra uniqueness, and role-playing is something
>above and beyond rules, it just has to come from the players.  The
>biggest problem I've seen is DMs who can't use the rules effectively
>(hence it ends up being die rolling) or players who aren't creative.

In a sense, I agree.. in that, some of the newer rules and such might 
have provided any of us with a unique idea, or slant on a previous idea, 
that we hadn't thought of before.. and hence, might even use.. but as I 
mentioned before, the cost was where the largest obstacle lay..

>I agree, and AD&D2 provided even more opportunity for embellishment and
>imagination.  The one gripe is TSR also seemed to have gotten greedy,
>such that some AD&D2 material is great, and lots are sub-standard,
>hence AD&D2 got a bad name.  Try looking at the Al-Qadim rules, they
>provide so much flavor and atmosphere, and aren't all that die 
>oriented. Avoid Dark Sun if you hate stats...  its the one world I 
>didn't play in.

Never had the opportunity to look over the Al-Qadim setting... and duly 
noted about Dark Sun.. the setting sounds nice, but stats after a 
fashion annoy the hell out of me..

Good example of NOT stats... anyone who played Battletech back when it 
was new (and called 'BattleDroids') will remember some of the cooler 
things FASA was doing for the Battletech game.. they released 
sourcebooks for the different Houses in the game, and there weren't any 
stats or charts (or a VERY bare minimum) in those books.. just good, 
solid SOURCE material... no one seems to do that anymore.

>they don't have character attributes and so on.  If all you're looking
>for is a good story, you needn't look at CRPGs...  just look at the
>adventure games out there.

Well... naturally, if *all* I wanted was story, I wouldn't even be 
'here.' :)  I like messing with character traits, attributes, and 
certain amount of numbers and such... even with the limited abilities of 
the CRPG's these days, it helps make it feel like the character you're 
controlling is more.. unique?

>The best example I can think of is the middle generation Ultimas (IV, 
>V) as a pretty good mix.  Lots of conversation, some puzzles, some 
>combat, lots of exploring.  And to me, Origin spoiled it by coming out 
>with the totally yucky interface of U7 and U8.

Here, I almost totally agree.  The earlier Ultimas had a good mix of 
some the traits I'm looking for... and the later Ultimas (never even 
bothered with 8) still had promise (I liked the interface, to an 
extent), but the games suddenly became largely overwhelming.. and with 
the interface, it didn't make for a pleasant mix, because that usually 
meant sitting at your computer for HOURS, not doing much more than 
wandering.

>I think I might give Star Trails a try, seeing it is the only one that
>is reasonably close to what I loved...  Darklands.

Agreed.. Darklands was very good.. I'm thinking of digging it out and 
messing with it again.  But of course, in my opinion, nothing has yet to 
beat Wasteland or Starflight (1 & 2) for ease-of-use and FANTASTIC 
story.. I don't think I've ever been so riveted to the computer, as I 
was with those games.

Rich
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RE...@ix.netcom.com