🚀 go-pugleaf

MuuMiMan wrote:
> IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER Marsh_lion
> <marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
> SCREEN!!!!:
> 
>> If you take "peak of power" terran battle cruisers, Science vessels (for
>> EMP shockwave) and Lockdown, Protoss are dead withing a short space of
>> time (this is assuming an expert at micromanagement). 
> 
> Peak of Power any race kills any race if all factors are in their
> favor, however such an utopia never happens during games, don't you
> agree? There's no "survive to this point, build this-and-this, and you
> will have won" -condition that exists.
> Since the terran army tends to be such a steamroller when it gets
> moving, the goal of Toss in PvT games is to stall and contain that
> steamroller from never getting the chance to start, rather than trying
> to directly challenge it with force. Bar some lucky cheesing or super
> player abilities, Toss will usually not beat equal resource terran -
> Thus the long-term goal of Protoss is to keep a constantly superior
> economy machine rolling, while Terran's goal is to stall that
> machinery to the best of their ability until they're given the chance
> to crack out of their shell.
> 
This I'm not too sure about. IMO it is very hard to get Terran's 
rolling, and when they do, it still isn't all that fast. Take Tanks for 
example, when not in siege mode, their damage is not great (nor is their 
firing speed). Their best damage (and range for that matter) comes with 
siege mode (when they can't move). Battle Cruisers are increadably slow 
and killed quite quickly with focused explosive attacks.  M&M&F are 
killed by splash damage (splash damage quickly makes medics useless when 
used on organic units). Goliaths AI and pathing is crap (and coupled 
with their large size, they are ripped up by explosive attacks. However 
their anti-air is well worth considering).

> Also, the relative peak of power for the races really is a variable
> factor depending on lot's of things - That is to say, the end of the
> Tech tree may be the peak of power for Race Z against Race Y, but not
> for Race X against Race Z, who might have comparatively better odds at
> fighting during the mid-game.
> 
Agreed. IMO, Zerg is best early game, Protoss in mid and Terran 
(assuming a skilled player) near the end.
> 
>> Maybe you and your
>> friends you learn how to micromanage effectively
>>
> From the look of the post, if they have trouble with zealot or
> Zergling cheese, they need to work on game basics first before
> worrying about micro. Well, micro is important in countering rush
> cheese, but if he has trouble handling 8-zealot swarms, his main
> problems doubly lie elsewhere than his unit management.
> 
> But yeah, terran require a good deal of attention to be remotely
> effective - Or rather, if you don't pay attention, they're very easy
> to kill off. Less forgiving than the other two races, I guess, but
> that really depends on the situation.
> 
> People should start with Protoss and learn first the game basics and
> mechanics with them, since they really need to worry much less about
> precise unit management than the other two race in general. 
> 
> Well, at the average player level...
> 
Again I agree. There is no point in learning the finer details of late 
game, if you can be killed in the first 10-15 minutes.

>> By far is Marines and medics, afterall, a marine and a medic can take
>> out a zerg sunken colony (assuming a medic has the appropriate energy
>> reserves). Also, the first 2 buildings a terran should build (other than
>> a CC & supply depots), are a barracks and academy (exactly what you need
>> for marines and medics). As mentioned though, it's a starting mechanism.
>> Protoss reavers or devourers (backed up by almost any other zerg unit)
>> will rip through them in no time.
>>
> Protoss basic infantry (goons and Zeals) in general will rip through
> terran infantry in small numbers quite well, even with medics on
> terran side.
> However, most toss that know something will go fast core and goons
> immediately when they know the enemy is terran, expecting him to go
> straight factory, so sometimes you can catch them off guard with just
> a plain old M&M cheese.
> 
Quite right. However, going back to the original post, it was from the 
Terran viewpoint, for the best start. I also forgot to mention, if 
you're focusing on defense (and not to worried about attacking) you will 
want your marines in a bunker (except maybe when facing goons or hydra's 
(due to their explosive attacks)). As you work up the tech tree, you 
will want to look at tanks and turrets or wraiths (see my comment below 
about them).

>> As for the rest of the game, it really depends on what your opponent is
>> doing. For protoss, the obvious choice is Science vessels for EMP and
>> ghosts for lockdown.
> 
> No, the obvious long-term goal is to have dozen factories chewing out
> crap non-stop. Same for Zerg, except replace factories with barracks.
> 
That depends on what your opponent is going for (you've got to remember 
that surveillance goes a long way in winning battles). If it's large air 
units (Carriers (you MUST focus fire here - ever seen a Battle cruiser 
on auto against a carrier or a sourge take out an interceptor?), 
Guardians, Devourers & Battle cruisers), Wraiths (again see my comment 
about these below) and Goliaths are what you need, large ground units 
(dragoons are debatable), I'd go for tanks. All other situations I would 
consider M&M&F.

> It's the decisions you need to make and paths to take in order to get
> to that point that decide your fate.
>  You can't have or do everything, but need to choose to build /and/
> use the right stuff at the right time - and in the right manner. That
> is the challenge of the game. You want Gols? Hope you can survive with
> a smaller tank presence then. SV and Ghosts? Sure they're nice, but
> they eat up a fuckton of gas - Can you afford that?, and if so, will
> it still be worth the investment, or would that gas be better put into
> just more combat troops? Kill his expansion or go save your own from
> his attack? etc
> 
So true. One thing to consider is that Gas is the only truely unlimited 
resource on any map (even when depleted, they still give gas).
> 
>> as well
>> managed wraiths can make short work of the zergs best air units (as can
>> protoss scouts).
> 
> Wraiths are the most horrible air unit in the game, bar the Protoss
> Scout (WTF double armor penalty attack on a unit that does explosive
> damage and costs half a bazillion of cash?).
> 
> 1) They're large in size, so they take virtually full damage from
> anything that can shoot at them 
> 
Correction, they are not large. IIRC the manual says they are small, 
although they may well have been patched up to medium (marines are 
small, hydra's, zealots & Protoss Scouts are medium and dragoons are large).

> 2) Their attack is explosive, so they only does half damage to Zerg
> Muta  & scourage.
> 
I agree. IMO Muta's generally suck (isn't their attack explosive as 
well?) and sourage die on attack, so I don't use them all that much.

> 3) They cost more than mutas, yet A) aren't really any more durable,
> in fact, they're way more fragile due to fact 1 B) They suck at
> fighting muta head-on, See fact 2. C) Again, they're horribly crap
> against anything on ground that shoots back.
> 
Again true.

> The only saving grace of the Wraith is their cloak ability, which
> isn't of much use once Zerg get the OL speed upgrade. Vs Toss it
> sometimes useful to get a few since a lot of people who go (quick)
> carrier tend to completely ignore the robotics tech tree...
> 
Wraiths are great for hit and runs (sure vultures are faster, but they 
can't attack air, nor go over cliffs) and large air units. They are even 
better if the enemy is stupid enough not to detect them.

> Most of the time it's just better just make more M&Ms with the money
> instead  - Sure they may not be as mobile as wraiths, but 1) They deal
> more damage 2) They can take more damage 3) unlike wraiths, they don't
> suck ass against anything that can attack them back.
> Get one to kill stray overlords early mid-game or a few to chase down
> retreating guardians above cliffs perhaps, but other than that, don't
> bother.
> 
As a general rule, massing any sort of unit as a terran, is a mistake. 
Their advantage is they can cause a lot of trouble with just a few units 
(ghost with lockdown and nukes, Science vessels EMP and Irradiate, hit 
and runs with wraiths & vultures). As a Terran, one way to win, is to 
make your enemy panic (and not know where you are comming from).
--
Marsh Lion