🚀 go-pugleaf

This is in reference to <MPG.10dd10595...@news.demon.co.uk>, in
which a one ma...@mhetherington.demon.co.uk (Mark) wrote:
> Yes it is a moral code designed in society some 2000 years ago. Society
> changes. It evolves. The bible has not evolved along with it so has ended
> up a collection of myths together with outdated and outmoded beliefs and
> rules of society 2 millennia ago. 

That doesn't mean that Christians today shouldn't try to live by their
rules.  As for non-Christians, well they weren't expected to live by them
at any point so what difference does it make?

> > > But as I recall the tree was supposed to have *all* the answers. :P
> > 
> > They didn't eat the whole tree, they just had a bite!
> 
> Why did they not get bits of unrelated info like some stuff that we are 
> only just discovering now and only got crap things like self
> consciousness of nudity? And as for eating a *tree* ... ;)

Maybe they *did* get stuff that we have only discovered recently - that 
doesn't mean that they passed the knowledge on to their children.

And about eating the tree...  when I said "the whole tree" I meant "all of the 
fruit" on the tree.  Try to be a little flexible with the use of my English, 
I'm trying.  I even spell things the proper English way :)  (like labour, and 
programme, etc.)

> I write "he" since I do not believe and therefore do not respect the 
> capital when referring to God. (Capital G for names though ;) !). I would 
> have expected you to use "He" ;)

Again, try to e a little flexible with my English :)

> > However, I'm not God, I'm just Superman ;)
> 
> That's cheating you have been reading ahead :P

Actually, I have been saying I'm Superman for quite a while :)  Maybe not
on this thread, but I can pull old stuff off a Dejanews if you just want
to see. 

> So Heaven and Hell are dreams? ;) AIUI they were "invented" to convince
> the fearful majority that death was not the end. In part to allay fears
> of their own death and in part to make coping with the loss of a loved
> one easier. Since no one understood death at the time, it was more
> misinformation as with creation in Genesis.

Please don't try to convince me that my religion is wrong.  I think it's
more like the existence that we're in *now* is a dream compared to the
afterlife.

> > > > Really?  I think that by *accepting* it, they become hypocrites.  
> > > 
> > > So by not accepting it and banning "ministers" from "practicing" they 
> > > would end up with a severe shortage of staff. Since they cannot 
> > > discipline their followers, they have to accept it or be hippocrites. 
> > 
> > That's the path some of them have chosen.
> 
> And this is OK with you?

Absolutely not.  I don't think God's laws adjust to the times.

> > > Did you ever wonder if they guy that wrote the line merely found it 
> > > obnoxious so put it in on behalf of God? 
> > 
> > There's more lines where that came from, but they don't mean anything to you
>  
> > so I won't bore you with any more of them.
> 
> Go on, I am interested even though they "don't mean anything to me". I 
> think we will get much further, much faster if we just talk rather than 
> making me beg you for every answer ;)

I don't really have them all with me, but I can refer you to two web sitesthat 
two.

Site #1: http://www.godhatesfags.com/ They're too extreme for my tastes, I 
don't think God hates anyone.  He just doesn't like what they're doing.

Site #2: http://www.clm.org/jhs/dallas.html This is a much better site, done 
from what I think of as the model Christian.  It's apparently rewritten 
material from a book, as the same contents are displayed on other sites.  He 
has a more complete list of references to homosexuality in the Bible.  By the 
way, all the references to it are negative ones.

> > And what you just wrote proves that people are stupid, and won't 
> 
> Hope you are not putting me in that category :P

No, don't worry.

> > obey the Bible that they believe in.  
> 
> How can they when they are told not to murder but to put homosexuals to 
> death? Which *is* the correct one?

They aren't being told to murder them - what the Bible is saying is that they 
*deserve* death, that doesn't give anyone the right to do it.

> Hey I am not knocking it. I am pointing out the holes in the hope that 
> you can explain the fix. You are doing a great job of affirming my lack 
> of religion and nothing to make your belief plausible. 
> 
> BTW - Bad analogy man.

:(  Sorry...  I'm doing this all by myself here.  
 
> OK now we are getting somewhere. A little discussion and a little give as 
> to your background. Thank you. Now, let's just relax and stop bracing 
> ourselves for an attack. I am not attacking you or your beliefs. I am 
> curious. Pure and simple. 

OK, I guess I needed to loosen up a little.
 
> > That's true, but we take things to bigger scales than animals do.  And that 
> > might not be better, morally, but it's better physically.
> 
> Why is it better physically?

Because it's bigger, it's stronger - we are animals, and have all the same 
weaknesses, but we are taking them to all new levels.

> > My parents believed in God since I was little.  At first it was genuine 
> > interest, like "How did God do this?" and "Why did people do that?"  Then 
> > there was a period of time where I didn't believe.
> > 
> > "Where is God anyway?"  "How could he let this happen to me?"  Things like 
> > that.  I was "thinking for myself," as so many non-Christians put it.
> > 
> > When I was older, I started to belive that there was enough historical
> > evidence and even scientific evidence to support Christianity.  Example,
> > animals were first, then man.  (Please don't make light of the point by
>  saying 
> > men are animals too! That's not the point!)  
> 
> Paranoid too but I can see why you said that :P Actually it never crossed 
> my mind until you said it but... only kidding ;)

I know, but it's like I have to be all technical with everything around you :P

> I am listening...
> 
> > So I started to think about how 
> > much of it was true.  I knew that you can still be Christian, and think for 
> > yourself.
> > 
> > When they found pieces of Noah's Ark and the true cross, that made me think 
> 
> Never heard about the finds. Still, there have been plenty of floods in 
> the past many formed at the end of an ice age when glaciers melt. 
> 
> Now don't take this personally but how do they know it was Noah's ark and 
> the "true" cross? I remember the whole "Shroud of Turin"(sp?) fiasco so I 
> just wonder how they verified it this time.

I can't remember, this is all quite some time ago.
 
> Slightly away from discussion here but what is with this letter in the 
> Vatican? We had a "mysteries of the world" type program recently which 
> mentioned how some woman had written a set of prophecies that each Pope 
> (and only he) reads after "inauguration". Apparently, they predicted 
> certain events in the Church. But getting back to where we were...

Don't remember that.

> > how maybe there was a flood that covered the Earth - or at least as much of
>  it 
> > as they knew.  
> 
> Glad you clarified that, you reputation is returning by leaps and 
> bounds. :) It shows thought since it would have been my first response ;)

Yeah, that's thing with the non-Christians and the drug users. (so as to
put you both in one class and make myself look superior :) They are
"thinking for themselves".  Really, most of em just use drugs or don't
believe as a form of rebellion.

> If they carbon dated the "ark" then they can probably time it using 
> geology to coincide with an ice age during the million years we have been 
> here. I guess a location to start would help them find it though :)

I don't trust carbon dating.  As a kind of comparison, some scientists develop 
some new weird material similar to metal.  They say if used as pipes for 
carrying water, they'll last 100 years longer than the ones we have now.
Now, how the *fuck* do they know?  Have they tested for 100 years?

Same thing with carbon dating.  They have no idea if dinosaurs were 
killed around 65 million years ago or 2 million or 5 billion.

> Personally I always thought the 40 days of flood was kind of a "magic" 
> number in the bible. Was it not for 40 days that Jesus went "into the 
> wilderness"? And I am not sure but I think there is another 40 in there 
> somewhere. Long time ago :)

Yeah, 40 is used a lot.  I don't know if Jesus actually went for 40 days or if 
he went longer or what.  No one will ever know the whole truth (until they 
die, but what fun is that?)

> > > Cos God came down your chimney every Christmas? :P
> > > (I so hope you take that as it is meant :) )
> > 
> > Yeah, I got it.  As long as I understand what you're saying, I can
> > understand what you mean by it.  Otherwise, it's the English language at
> > fault :)
> 
> I am glad. Just promise me one thing. Don't read more into my words than 
> I write. I will not "mock" you for the simple reason you are not forcing 
> it down my throat. Most people with your beliefs are so enthralled as to 
> make conversation with them pointless while others are too "scared" to 
> discuss it. 

Well, that's what we're scared of (at least me) - becoming one of those 
annyoing people who go knocking on your door Sunday night.  I don't like any 
more than I like telephone solicitation or spam mail.

> I saw a chance and seemed to have pestered you enough to get 
> you to talk ;) Now if my replies are sarcastic or humorous it is to 
> *avoid* offending your belief. If I had been perfectly serious about my 
> comments so far, we probably would not be here now. It is better to 
> approach this from a light hearted point of view rather than serious. 
> This way you won't get too offended. And believe me, if I wanted to mock 
> I would have done so already. ;)

OK, but from now on let's try to avoid approching subjects like Heaven and 
Hell as if they are fact, and we already know whether or not they exist.  
Because no one's 100% sure and acting like we are is just kind of annoying.

Peace :)

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