🚀 go-pugleaf

This is in reference to <MPG.10dce90b6...@news.demon.co.uk>, in which a
one ma...@mhetherington.demon.co.uk (Mark) wrote:
> In article <0Alc2.2280$961....@server1.news.adelphia.net>, 
> tabmok99....@damnspaz.com says...

> > I'm not using it [the Bible] as a basis, but as a backup.
> 
> So why do you only quote the bible but not put forward evidence or 
> opinions of your own. Saying "I think ... and the bible agrees with me 
> where it says ..." would be more like backup but would still seem to be 
> basis. 

I was trying not to drag it on for too long.

<snip> 

> Remember we both agree much of the bible was a simple way to explain away 
> the unknown in the distant past. e.g. Genesis. In the past a question 
> could be answered with "God made it that way" or "God put it there" or 
> "It is God's way" and everyone went "Huh. OK then". You seem to agree 
> that this time is passed but at the moment you seem to be using this same 
> technique and call it backup. Using these words as backup is as bad as 
> the old "prophets" explaining it all away with a "superman" type 
> character. I hope you get what I mean here :)

I do get what you're saying.  Even if you don't believe in the same things I 
do, you also must admit that much of the Bible is not so much explaining the 
unexplainable, but a set of rules that people should go by.

> > > Did not Adam eat of the "Tree of Knowledge"? Surely this was indicative 
> > > than Man had been blessed/cursed with *all* knowledge. 
> > 
> > No it doesn't.  That's like saying that reading the newspaper will inform
>  you 
> > of *all* news going on.
> 
> But as I recall the tree was supposed to have *all* the answers. :P

They didn't eat the whole tree, they just had a bite!

> Tress aside, how come God has never given us any more information. We 
> have discovered many things, 

Maybe because he knew we would figure it out for ourselves eventually, and it 
would be easier to understand if we learned that way.  However, I'm not God, 
I'm just Superman ;)

> (including the lack of a hell beneath our feet and a heaven in the skies)

I think that Heaven and Hell aren't so much physical places, and that you 
can't really walk there.  Kind of like dreams - if you dream of a place that 
doesn't exist, you can't make it exist, you'll only get there by dreaming of 
it again.

> > > Isn't it interesting that most of man's worst fears are based on being 
> > > second to top. E.g. Vampires - preying on the blood of Man. And isn't it 
> > > arrogant that we think the only thing "better" than us could be a 
> > > slightly different version!
> > 
> > No we don't.  We think about aliens, too.
> 
> And how do we envisage them. As either benevolent improvements of 
> ourselves or hostile improvements or hostile throwbacks to other earthly 
> creatures. More arrogance. 

OK, this isn't really proving anything except that we're arragont :)  
But if you want an example of beings that are better than man without being 
some kind of version of man, check out Planet of the Apes.  Just the first 
one, the sequels really don't mean anything :)

> I don't think it makes cats high does it not just have an attractive 
> smell for them? 

Have you ever seen a cat on catnip?  :)

> The truth is we are *not* "better". We are just *arrogant*. I have kind 
> of talked about this in another post so I'll let you read it all there :)

We're better, and we're arragont about it  :)  I'll read your other post 
though.
 
> > Really?  I think that by *accepting* it, they become hypocrites.  
> 
> So by not accepting it and banning "ministers" from "practicing" they 
> would end up with a severe shortage of staff. Since they cannot 
> discipline their followers, they have to accept it or be hippocrites. 

That's the path some of them have chosen.
 
> Did you ever wonder if they guy that wrote the line merely found it 
> obnoxious so put it in on behalf of God? 

There's more lines where that came from, but they don't mean anything to you 
so I won't bore you with any more of them.

> "Thou shalt not murder" - (small print - except for homosexuals and 
> witches ;) )
> 
> "Love thy neighbour as yourself" - (small print - as for murder)
> 
> You probably won't, but would you post the big ten :) I can remember the 
> common ones but it would be interesting to see them all.

No, I won't post all ten of them, you'll just make a mockery of them as you 
are now.  And what you just wrote proves that people are stupid, and won't 
obey the Bible that they believe in.  But don't knock the Bible, or me for 
using it - that would be like arresting someone who only used morphine for a 
pain killer for their broken arm, 'cuz you're mad at some high driver who 
killed your girlfriend or whatever.

> > Plus, there are two main branches of Christianity - Protestant and Catholic.
> > I'm a Catholic.  When the Protestant branch was formed, they changed one of 
> > the Commandments which is a really dumb idea.  
> 
> Really? Which one?

I can't really remember, it was a long time ago when I found this stuff out.

> > OK pal, you have crossed the line.  All my views are my own, my belief in 
> > Christ as the Saviour only enhances them.
> 
> Sorry, it is dodgy territory ;) It did invoke a response though so you 
> can't be that pissed at me :)
>
> If your views are indeed your own, I wonder, did you develop them before 
> or after reading the bible?

Well there were periods when I didn't believe in God.  I told you about this,
I was confused about the Santa thing.  There were other times too.  
Anyway, I formed a lot of my opinions about morality during these periods of 
time, but it was after reading the Bible.  So it's really hard to say.
 
> > Well that's not God or religion's fault - it's their's.  There are a lot of 
> 
> But what about the biblical instructions to put certain persons to death. 
> God's commands as you have quoted him.

The Commandmant that people want to follow today is "Thou shalt not kill."  
Originally, it was "Thous shalt not murder."  Murder and kill have slightly 
different meanings, and killing certain people was okay back then, hence the 
weapons.

> They fight because everyone believes different things. Everybody believes 
> they are right. Another example of human arrogance. When all else fails 
> we go back to our primal roots and kill, maim, hurt etc.

That's true, but we take things to bigger scales than animals do.  And that 
might not be better, morally, but it's better physically.

> BTW, how are you on blasphemy? It would be useful to be able to humorise 
> the discussion but I am not sure of your tolerance level with regard this 
> belief. Let's say I said "How do you know I am not the second coming?". 
> If you are OK with such things in the knowledge that God will punish my 
> actions then fine, I will cross that bridge when I come to it :P If not, 
> then I'll steer clear. 

If you mean blasphemy in the sense of Mortal Kombat (Raiden, Shinnok, etc.) or 
even South Park (Jesus vs. Santa, Jesus vs. Satan) I don't mind it at all.  
At leas I'm not going to Hell for watching it.

> > I don't feel like I have to validate my belief for any reason.  
> 
> I am not asking you to validate anything, I am just genuinely interested. 
> I want to know why you believe. For want of a better term - What made you 
> "see the light"? Stuff like that. As I say it is pure interest. I cannot 
> see any reason why someone would and from conversations we have had here 
> now and in the past, I thought you would be open to talk. 

Well, I just don't want you to use this against me somehow, but all right.

My parents believed in God since I was little.  At first it was genuine 
interest, like "How did God do this?" and "Why did people do that?"  Then 
there was a period of time where I didn't believe.

"Where is God anyway?"  "How could he let this happen to me?"  Things like 
that.  I was "thinking for myself," as so many non-Christians put it.

When I was older, I started to belive that there was enough historical
evidence and even scientific evidence to support Christianity.  Example,
animals were first, then man.  (Please don't make light of the point by saying 
men are animals too! That's not the point!)  So I started to think about how 
much of it was true.  I knew that you can still be Christian, and think for 
yourself.

When they found pieces of Noah's Ark and the true cross, that made me think 
how maybe there was a flood that covered the Earth - or at least as much of it 
as they knew.  Maybe it wasn't forty days, maybe it was, but we're never going 
to know.  There was a man who walked the Earth named Jesus Christ, and he had 
twelve apostles... well I'm not going to bore you again.  Either you believe 
or you don't.  I think you see why I am a believer.

> > I have however 
> > read and saw why you don't believe.  I just think, I have my religion, you 
> > don't want one, fine.  I'm not going to try to convert you or anything, you 
> 
> Now I wonder why there are so many wars over religion? :P 

Because people get all violent, and there's too many extremists.  That's why 
people fight about it, not me though.

> I ask you why you believe and you don't want to say. I do not believe and 
> do not care whether you do or not. Since you do, I just wondered why. 
> Lack of communication and understanding is the cause of many wars, fights 
> and arguments. I just thought we could discuss this in the same way we 
> have discussed drugs, warez, "animals", rape, abortion, murder, 
> homosexuality. Why is your religion so sacred, we cannot talk about it? 
> :(

I told you, I didn't want you to mock my faith.  I hope you won't, but I did 
tell you why I believe.  
 
> Besides, you could *never* convert me and I would not expect you to try. 
> In the same way I would not try or expect to "convert" you. 

<snip>

> Besides, why is it OK for us to mock each other's opinions, views, 
> language use even wanking habits but not beliefs?

My religion is sacred to me.  Plus, I'm in the minority here :)

> Cos God came down your chimney every Christmas? :P
> (I so hope you take that as it is meant :) )

Yeah, I got it.  As long as I understand what you're saying, I can
understand what you mean by it.  Otherwise, it's the English language at
fault :)

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