🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <2h3njl$4...@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>,
Jayson <s93...@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU> wrote:
>
> Ok people, reading the stuff on the swastika found in
> 'knee deep in the dead' is pretty silly really.
>
> Pentagrams and outright references to demons are abundant,
> the religious citizens of our net community need not fear
> a moral infringement on the souls of our doomster buddies
> for the Marine in the game is only there to make them eat
> lead (or plasma). Thus purging the foul creatures from our
> sacred universe.
>
> The swastika IS BACKWARD, that is if it were pointing in
> any direction it would be counter clockwise, Nazi swastikas
> and ROMAN swastikas, AND FOR THAT MATTER FINNISH swastikas
> rotate CLOCKWISE, and yes, sorry for shouting... :)
>



In some American Indian cultures, that is a sign for love.
(It confused me about the Indians' and Nazis' having a symbol that
only differed in the direction.

This sort of reminds me of Prince's, now symbol, backward lyrics.)



> So, if these supposed icons or references in the game offend
> you then you should also be worried about the violence and 
> the squishy sound effect when a barrel blows up or the actuall
> gear strain noise when an imp is being sushied by my fave
> chainsaw....
>
> ID has a cult game already, IT is the best, like it or go back
> to Earth and let us clean up the crap on Mars. :)
>
> cheers
> 'gotsta replay level 4 again...luv it'
> Jay
>
>


-- 
Unemployed Grad student looking for full time paying work   kr...@asu.edu
Finger for details.
"Succsess in a large organization, whether it;s a university or IBM, is 
generally based on appearance, not reality." -- R. Crigley, Accidental Empires

Amazing... we've heard all sorts of speculations about what Id meant
by the swastika, all sorts of reasons why we shouldn't be offended by
it, and all sorts of exhortations that people stop talking about it,
but the original question hasn't been answered... what did the
programmers at Id mean by the swastika?


tj...@mbfs.bio.cam.ac.uk (Tim Cutts) wrote:
> The Swastika has been known for thousands of years as a
> symbol of peace.  Just because a bunch of assholes in Germany decided to use
> it for ten years or so earlier this century is no reason to ban its use.  Why
> don't you think of it's traditional symbolism rather than its recent meaning?
> 
> This sort of attitude is what gets bad symbolism entrenched in the first place.
> 
> I personally rather like the pentagram as a shape too.  Doesn't mean I'm a
> satanist though.


In article <2h3njl$4...@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>,
Jayson <s93...@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU> wrote:
[...]
> The swastika IS BACKWARD, that is if it were pointing in
> any direction it would be counter clockwise, Nazi swastikas
> and ROMAN swastikas, AND FOR THAT MATTER FINNISH swastikas
> rotate CLOCKWISE, and yes, sorry for shouting... :)

I think most of us are aware by now, if we weren't before, that the
"fylfot" has been around for ages and was only recently appropriated
by the Nazis.  We've also been reminded many times that the Nazi
swastika's arms go clockwise.  Nevertheless, most of DOOM's audience
(European and North American) is likely to associate the symbol with
Nazis.  To assume otherwise would be naive and irresponsible.

To use an extreme example, someone could write "FUCK YOU" on a wall,
and then when someone objects, they could say, "Those letters were
used over two thousand years ago by the Romans, at which time the
words 'FUCK YOU' did not have any meaning.  So if you are offended by
them, it's your own fault.  You should think of them as Latin
gibberish, not an English insult."

In other words, you can't use a well-known symbol and expect people
not to interpret it according to its commonly understood meaning.
If you mean something else by it, that needs to be explained.

> So, if these supposed icons or references in the game offend you

They don't offend me, but I'm concerned about the intent behind them.
I think it would be reasonable for some people to be offended by them.

> then you should also be worried about the violence and 
> the squishy sound effect when a barrel blows up or the actuall
> gear strain noise when an imp is being sushied by my fave
> chainsaw....

Yep, I'm concerned about the gore too.  But that's a separate issue.

> ID has a cult game already, IT is the best, like it or go back
> to Earth and let us clean up the crap on Mars. :)

I don't like it.  I love it.  That doesn't mean I'm not concerned
about its contents.


To clarify: I'm not accusing Id of evil or irresponsible intent.
There are all sorts of possible reasons why the swastika is in there.
Any accusatory tone above is directed toward previous posters who
unfairly dismissed the question, not toward Id.

But the fact that it IS in there raises a question that I think needs
to be answered.  I would really appreciate some kind of official
statement from Id... whether it's "It was just a joke" or "a reference
to Wolfenstein" or "a Martian good-luck symbol" or "a cheap publicity
stunt" or "We're sorry" or whatever.  I think a definitive answer
would put this issue to rest much more effectively than shouting down
people who ask the question.

Lars Huttar                 Thou of life the fountain art
Texas Instruments           Deeply let me take of thee
Dallas, TX                  Spring thou up within my heart
hut...@hp750.itg.ti.com     Rise to all eternity

In article <HUTTAR.94J...@hp750.itg.ti.com> hut...@hp750.itg.ti.com (Lars Huttar) writes:
>
>Amazing... we've heard all sorts of speculations about what Id meant
>by the swastika, all sorts of reasons why we shouldn't be offended by
>it, and all sorts of exhortations that people stop talking about it,
>but the original question hasn't been answered... what did the
>programmers at Id mean by the swastika?
>
>
For God's sake, who gives a sh_t?!?! It's a _GAME_, guys! I somehow doubt
that ID is attempting to organize a cult and start a whole new group like
the one in Waco, Texas. 

So there's a swastika (or whatever the hell it is) in the map in a room.
How does one discover such a thing? By digging around, for one thing. I
realize that you are supposed to look at the map, but I don't know about
most people but I don't pay special attention to the shape of the area.
It doesn't matter! All I care about are those little arrows moving around
indicating my next victim... It almost seems like somebody is looking for
something to made ID or DOOM or something else bad...

>To use an extreme example, someone could write "FUCK YOU" on a wall,
>and then when someone objects, they could say, "Those letters were
>used over two thousand years ago by the Romans, at which time the
>words 'FUCK YOU' did not have any meaning.  So if you are offended by
>them, it's your own fault.  You should think of them as Latin
>gibberish, not an English insult."
>
>In other words, you can't use a well-known symbol and expect people
>not to interpret it according to its commonly understood meaning.
>If you mean something else by it, that needs to be explained.
>
I seem to remember that, oh, Hitler and the rest of his gang who used the
swastika as an evil symbol were sort of beaten several decades ago...

Sure there's probably people out there who think Hitler was right (hell, my
dad thinks he had some great ideas but was just a lunatic and didn't do
things right) but I don't think ID means to gather 'em all up and come after
us or something...

It's most likely just something that just happened when the designer was
building the layouts for the levels. Most likely the dude didn't notice it
until people started b_tching about it here.
>> So, if these supposed icons or references in the game offend you
>
>They don't offend me, but I'm concerned about the intent behind them.
>I think it would be reasonable for some people to be offended by them.
>a

Just curious, but why? Why would people be concerned about a swastika in
a video game? Not intending to flame... just asking a question.

>> then you should also be worried about the violence and 
>> the squishy sound effect when a barrel blows up or the actuall
>> gear strain noise when an imp is being sushied by my fave
>> chainsaw....
>
>Yep, I'm concerned about the gore too.  But that's a separate issue.
>
The gore is great. It's better that it shows up here instead of outside your
front door, isn't it? Hey, the VGA color palette has red in it. Why not use
it?!?! >%-)
>[A> ID has a cult game already, IT is the best, like it or go back
>> to Earth and let us clean up the crap on Mars. :)
>
>I don't like it.  I love it.  That doesn't mean I'm not concerned
>about its contents.
>
>
>To clarify: I'm not accusing Id of evil or irresponsible intent.
>There are all sorts of possible reasons why the swastika is in there.
>Any accusatory tone above is directed toward previous posters who
>unfairly dismissed the question, not toward Id.
>
>But the fact that it IS in there raises a question that I think needs
>to be answered.  I would really appreciate some kind of official
>statement from Id... whether it's "It was just a joke" or "a reference
>to Wolfenstein" or "a Martian good-luck symbol" or "a cheap publicity
>stunt" or "We're sorry" or whatever.  I think a definitive answer
>would put this issue to rest much more effectively than shouting down
>people who ask the question.
>
>
I would agree with this part. I'd like to hear what ID has to say...

I'm not flaming anybody here, just stating an opinion. 

I still think this whole thing is rediculous. It's just a video game stored
in a five megabyte file on a hard drive. I don't think it's going to hurt

us.

Now why the hell did my god damned editor just put two f_cking carriage
returns in there? Oh well...

--
Get bent at ferr...@lamar.colostate.edu

    _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/     _/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/    _/  _/_/_/_/  _/
  _/         _/           _/        _/   _/ _/        _/_/  _/     _/     _/
 _/  _/_/   _/_/_/       _/        _/_/_/  _/_/_/    _/  _/_/     _/     _/
_/    _/   _/           _/        _/   _/ _/        _/    _/     _/
 _/_/     _/_/_/_/     _/        _/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/    _/     _/     _/

Just a friendly reminder from a slightly demented netter. Have a nice day!
Please send all flames to yourself. Please send all comments and compliments
to yourself; it'll make you feel better.

*** The opinions stated in this article are not copyrighted - feel free to
    duplicate and distribute them as you see fit. ***

If there are ^M thingys in the sig above there I apologize. My newsreader
only allows 4 lines for a sig so I have to read the thing in manually and
it doesn't like carriage returns for some reason.

Have a nice day.


Lars Huttar                 Thou of life the fountain art
>Texas Instruments           Deeply let me take of thee
>Dallas, TX                  Spring thou up within my heart
>hut...@hp750.itg.ti.com     Rise to all eternity


    _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/     _/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/    _/  _/_/_/_/  _/
  _/         _/           _/        _/   _/ _/        _/_/  _/     _/     _/
 _/  _/_/   _/_/_/       _/        _/_/_/  _/_/_/    _/  _/_/     _/     _/
_/    _/   _/           _/        _/   _/ _/        _/    _/     _/

hut...@hp750.itg.ti.com (Lars Huttar) writes:

>To use an extreme example, someone could write "FUCK YOU" on a wall,
>and then when someone objects, they could say, "Those letters were
>used over two thousand years ago by the Romans, at which time the
>words 'FUCK YOU' did not have any meaning.  So if you are offended by
>them, it's your own fault.  You should think of them as Latin
>gibberish, not an English insult."

I can't resist some pedantry here.  Latin does not have a 'K', and they wrote
'U' as 'V', so a Latin speaker would never have written those words, even
as gibberish.

>In other words, you can't use a well-known symbol and expect people
>not to interpret it according to its commonly understood meaning.
>If you mean something else by it, that needs to be explained.

I take the point though.

Tim.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Cutts: tj...@cus.cam.ac.uk               | Refs 7.2 the academic reference
CRC Mammalian Cell DNA Repair Research Group | database for Windows 3.1 is now
Please support the Cancer Research Campaign! | on ftp.cica.indiana.edu