🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <CJJ72...@news2.cis.umn.edu> Matt Clayton <clay...@gold.tc.umn.edu> writes:
>Subject: MacDoom?
>From: Matt Clayton <clay...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
>Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 19:13:34 GMT

>        Seems as though DOOM has taken over the computer world!  As a dedicated
>Mac user the game is good enough to make me consider buying a clone, if
>they didn't suck in so many other ways...certainly the BEST DAMN computer
>game I've ever seen.
>         I've seen a few people asking the question, but no answers...anyone
>hear about a possible Mac version of DOOM or do I have to wait until the
>PowerPC comes out and run it in emulation?


(Desperately restraining the urge to turn this into a Mac flame) Don't hold 
your breath.  As I have pointed out earlier, even if the Mac's OS wasn't 
pretty unsuitable for games like Doom, the lack of demand for a Mac version 
(no offence) would probably discourage a port.  Remember the next time you 
attack PC clones that your precious Macs comprise less than 1/7th of the PC 
market...  Apparently a LOT of people know something you don't...

BTW, you don't have to wait for a PowerPC...  You can buy a PC clone and run 
OS/2 now  (don't tell me you were actually planning to run System 7.x on your 
PowerPC!!!!  What a waste...) and then you can play Doom to your heart's 
content.
Disclaimer?  I don't need no stinking disclaimer!

When you need a disclaimer to speak your mind, lawyers
have too much spare time...


Q:  What's the difference between a dead lawyer and a dead rat
in the middle of the road?

A:  There are skid-marks in front of the rat...

In article <jong.37....@wonderware.com> jo...@wonderware.com (Jonathan Gwynne) writes:

> (Desperately restraining the urge to turn this into a Mac flame) Don't hold 
> your breath.  As I have pointed out earlier, even if the Mac's OS wasn't 
> pretty unsuitable for games like Doom, the lack of demand for a Mac version 
> (no offence) would probably discourage a port.  Remember the next time you 
> attack PC clones that your precious Macs comprise less than 1/7th of the PC 
> market...  Apparently a LOT of people know something you don't...

Christ.  I'm SURE this guy wasn't in on the whole "porting DOOM to the Mac"
thread and I'm SURE he isn't in the habit of attacking PC clones, judging by
his innocent-sounding post.  The PC has a well-established user base, at least
in part, because it has been around about 5 years longer (which is a long time
in computer terms).  Macs are not The Great Deception; they have merits, as do
PCs.  There's no need for unnecessary violence here -- go play DOOM instead.

 -Paul Hagstrom
  hags...@mit.edu

> (Desperately restraining the urge to turn this into a Mac flame) Don't hold 
> your breath.  As I have pointed out earlier, even if the Mac's OS wasn't 
> pretty unsuitable for games like Doom, the lack of demand for a Mac version 
> (no offence) would probably discourage a port.  Remember the next time you 
> attack PC clones that your precious Macs comprise less than 1/7th of the PC 
> market...  Apparently a LOT of people know something you don't...

Ok, as a Mac AND PC kind of a guy how about this ... the latest Mac HW to be 
released in March (the PowerPC 601) can run Insignia's SoftNode and SoftPC at 
approximately 486dx/25 speeds (according to MacWeek) so for about 2k any 
PowerPC-Mac user can run any DOS or Mac app. Pentium can't do that, can it.

Brendan


 ________________________________________________________________________
|                      |   _   _  __  _   _  |                           |
| Brendan McTague      |  /_) /_)/  //_| / \ | Michigan State University |
| Network Coordinator  | /__)/ \(__//  |/__/ | 103 South Eppley Center   |
| Phone: (517)336-2184 | College of Business | East Lansing, MI 48824    |
|______________________|___mctague@msu.edu___|___________________________|

In <mctague.1...@msu.edu>, mct...@msu.edu (Brendan McTague) writes:
>> (Desperately restraining the urge to turn this into a Mac flame) Don't hold 
>> your breath.  As I have pointed out earlier, even if the Mac's OS wasn't 
>> pretty unsuitable for games like Doom, the lack of demand for a Mac version 
>> (no offence) would probably discourage a port.  Remember the next time you 
>> attack PC clones that your precious Macs comprise less than 1/7th of the PC 
>> market...  Apparently a LOT of people know something you don't...
>
>Ok, as a Mac AND PC kind of a guy how about this ... the latest Mac HW to be 
>released in March (the PowerPC 601) can run Insignia's SoftNode and SoftPC at 
>approximately 486dx/25 speeds (according to MacWeek) so for about 2k any 
>PowerPC-Mac user can run any DOS or Mac app. Pentium can't do that, can it.


Yes and soon OS/2 and Windows.  Buit no Mac user wants to wait that long for DOOM. 
But unfortunately, they probably will have to.  System 7 is very different from 
DOS(shocker).  Recompiling for MAC is a sizable project for any any program, much 
less a beast of the size of DOOM.  And Brendan is right about the low MAC share of
the market.  Last I heard it was 9%.  All that means is that people are less likely
to write programs for Macintosh, as there is less money to be earned that way.  

As for comparisons between the Pentium and the Power PC, I don't think there is any 
relevancy to the MAC - PC war in that because the Power PC was designed to run on 
many platforms(DOS, System 7, Unix, OS/2, AIX,...).  Best to compare the Pentium to 
the top Mac only machine, and the Power PC to the Pentium and the top Mac machine, 
respectively.

Berch?
This .sig is my .sig,  This .sig is my .sig. from the word 'this',  down to the word
that.

In article <CJKtx...@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>, Berchm...@vnet.ibm.com(berchmeister) writes:
>In <mctague.1...@msu.edu>, mct...@msu.edu (Brendan McTague) writes:
>>>
>>> [stuff deleted]
>>>
>>Ok, as a Mac AND PC kind of a guy how about this ... the latest Mac HW to be 
>>released in March (the PowerPC 601) can run Insignia's SoftNode and SoftPC at 
>>approximately 486dx/25 speeds (according to MacWeek) so for about 2k any 
>>PowerPC-Mac user can run any DOS or Mac app. Pentium can't do that, can it.
>
>
>Yes and soon OS/2 and Windows.  Buit no Mac user wants to wait that long for DOOM. 
>But unfortunately, they probably will have to.  System 7 is very different from 
>DOS(shocker).  Recompiling for MAC is a sizable project for any any program, much 
>less a beast of the size of DOOM.  And Brendan is right about the low MAC share of
>the market.  Last I heard it was 9%.  All that means is that people are less likely
>to write programs for Macintosh, as there is less money to be earned that way.  
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The shareware version doesn't make any money.  I know your talking about mac
software in general, but the shareware version could be produced and
distributed as sort of a "trial run".  I don't know why ID decided to release
Doom as shareware on the IBM because the game got such high reviews, and it's
higher quality than a lot of commercial games.  Even without the shareware
version, people would flock to the stores to buy it.

>As for comparisons between the Pentium and the Power PC, I don't think there is any 
>relevancy to the MAC - PC war in that because the Power PC was designed to run on 
>many platforms(DOS, System 7, Unix, OS/2, AIX,...).  Best to compare the Pentium to 
>the top Mac only machine, and the Power PC to the Pentium and the top Mac machine, 
>respectively.
>
>Berch?
>This .sig is my .sig,  This .sig is my .sig. from the word 'this',  down to the word
>that.
>

In article <mctague.1...@msu.edu>, mct...@msu.edu (Brendan McTague) writes:
> 
> Ok, as a Mac AND PC kind of a guy how about this ... the latest Mac HW to be 
> released in March (the PowerPC 601) can run Insignia's SoftNode and SoftPC at 
> approximately 486dx/25 speeds (according to MacWeek) so for about 2k any 
> PowerPC-Mac user can run any DOS or Mac app. Pentium can't do that, can it.
> 
> Brendan
> 
> 
The question is, will it emulate a PC sound card?  Have you
tried playing Doom without sound?  And if it emulates, say, a
base Sound Blaster you can't really compare Doom on that to
Doom on a GUS -- now that is serious good fun.

  -- Dave 

Christopher Smith
cbs...@boomer.uwaterloo.ca
cbs...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
DC 3527
(519) 885-1211x3581
>>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Gray <peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> writes:

Patrick> In article <CJKtx...@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>,
Patrick> Berchm...@vnet.ibm.com(berchmeister) writes:
>> In <mctague.1...@msu.edu>, mct...@msu.edu (Brendan
>> McTague) writes:
>>>>  [stuff deleted]
>>>> 
>>> Ok, as a Mac AND PC kind of a guy how about this ... the latest
>>> Mac HW to be released in March (the PowerPC 601) can run
>>> Insignia's SoftNode and SoftPC at approximately 486dx/25 speeds
>>> (according to MacWeek) so for about 2k any PowerPC-Mac user can
>>> run any DOS or Mac app. Pentium can't do that, can it.
>> 
>> 
>> Yes and soon OS/2 and Windows.  Buit no Mac user wants to wait
>> that long for DOOM.  But unfortunately, they probably will have
>> to.  System 7 is very different from DOS(shocker).  Recompiling
>> for MAC is a sizable project for any any program, much less a
>> beast of the size of DOOM.  And Brendan is right about the low
>> MAC share of the market.  Last I heard it was 9%.  All that means
>> is that people are less likely to write programs for Macintosh,
>> as there is less money to be earned that way.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Patrick> The shareware version doesn't make any money.  I know your
Patrick> talking about mac software in general, but the shareware
Patrick> version could be produced and distributed as sort of a
Patrick> "trial run".  I don't know why ID decided to release Doom
Patrick> as shareware on the IBM because the game got such high
Patrick> reviews, and it's higher quality than a lot of commercial
Patrick> games.  Even without the shareware version, people would
Patrick> flock to the stores to buy it.

Id released the shareware game because they have decided that it's
easier to make money by releasing the actual game as shareware, and then
sell the add ons. (Actually somewhat similar to Apple's approach to
Newton: don't make money on the base unit, just the add ons.)

So, Id's $$'s put into making the shareware game is the same as $$'s put
towards marketing a software game as in other companies. Personally, I
think Id's approach is a little bit more expensive, but a LOT more
effective. (How many people DON'T want the add ons after they've
completed the shareware version?)

So, Id would basically have to make a completely new investment of $$'s
and this expense could only be justified with a comperable return as the
DOS version. This is not very likely. Furthermore, the whole thing would
be difficult for ID because as best as I can determine DOOM uses very
low level VGA graphics calls to get it's wonderfull graphics performance
(probably the single most outstanding feature of the game). In the
Mac world, basically everyone uses Quickdraw. Quickdraw GX won't be out
for a while, and it'll have minimal market penetration at first due to
it's hideous memory requirements. Either way, both graphics libraries
are VERY different from VGA.

Id would also suddenly have to deal with a co-operative multitasking
environment and event driven system. It'd be a lot of work and I'm sure
that they are happy taking in the money as is.

However, there is hope for Mac users, see below.

>> As for comparisons between the Pentium and the Power PC, I don't
>> think there is any relevancy to the MAC - PC war in that because
>> the Power PC was designed to run on many platforms(DOS, System 7,
>> Unix, OS/2, AIX,...).  Best to compare the Pentium to the top Mac
>> only machine, and the Power PC to the Pentium and the top Mac
>> machine, respectively.
>> 
>> Berch?  This .sig is my .sig, This .sig is my .sig. from the word
>> 'this', down to the word that.
>> 

OK. On the PowerPC performance thing. The performance rating was for
Windows programs because SoftWindows will use natively compiled Windows
graphics calls. VGA graphics routines are a lot lower level, so
the performance increase is a lot lower unless one somehow has a VGA
graphics card installed. The PowerPC is really designed to run only a
few environments natively: AIX, MacOS, WorkplaceOS, Solaris, and Windows
NT as far as I can tell. Other environments will be "emulated" through
software. This means a pretty serious performance hit (at the very least
1/2 the performance).

BUT THERE IS HOPE FOR MAC USERS! There is a game for the Mac called
Pathways Into Darkness. I played with the demo version and it reminded
me a lot of DOOM/Wolf3D. I was using a Mac IIsi (20 MHz 68030 with
graphics stored in the system's very slow RAM) and as long as I used
low-res the performance was quite fine. Quickdraw allows for higher
resolutions and colour depths, so low-res mode is fine, high-res mode is
beautifull. The game has a lot of the same features as DOOM: shadows &
lighting effects, auto-mapping, tons of different weapons, heavy NAZI
influence, etc.

One feature I *didn't* find with PID was variable elevation. The
auto-mapping is a lot nicer though: very legible and it looks like some
kind of ancient map.

All in all it seems like a pretty good alternative, and proof to me that
Quickdraw is a pretty capable graphics library, and that there are
indeed cool games for the Mac.

--Chris
--
Christopher Smith
cbs...@boomer.uwaterloo.ca
cbs...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
DC 3527
(519) 885-1211x3581

>
> [stuff deleted]
>
>So, Id would basically have to make a completely new investment of $$'s
>and this expense could only be justified with a comperable return as the
>DOS version. This is not very likely. Furthermore, the whole thing would
>be difficult for ID because as best as I can determine DOOM uses very
>low level VGA graphics calls to get it's wonderfull graphics performance
>(probably the single most outstanding feature of the game). In the
>Mac world, basically everyone uses Quickdraw. Quickdraw GX won't be out
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I haven't heard of this (of course, i dont hear much of anything in this jail
called school.  What's the difference between quickdraw GX and regular
quickdraw?

>for a while, and it'll have minimal market penetration at first due to
>it's hideous memory requirements. Either way, both graphics libraries
>are VERY different from VGA.
>
> [stuff deleted]
>
>All in all it seems like a pretty good alternative, and proof to me that
>Quickdraw is a pretty capable graphics library, and that there are
>indeed cool games for the Mac.
>
>--Chris
>--

>the market.  Last I heard it was 9%.  All that means is that people are less likely
>to write programs for Macintosh, as there is less money to be earned that way.  

Does anyone know more or less how much Id HAS made on Doom so far?

Tom

Brendan McTague <mct...@msu.edu> writes:
 
>Ok, as a Mac AND PC kind of a guy how about this ... the latest Mac HW to be 
>released in March (the PowerPC 601) can run Insignia's SoftNode and SoftPC at 
>approximately 486dx/25 speeds (according to MacWeek) so for about 2k any 
>PowerPC-Mac user can run any DOS or Mac app. Pentium can't do that, can it.
 
 
How come everyone thinks that the PowerPC 601 is a new type of Macintosh.  It's
actuallya new type of microprocessor that is as fast as a pentium but much
cheaper.  Part of it was developed by IBM, who was working with Motorola and
Apple.
 
Right now I'm waiting for IBM to port it into OS/2 which they are currently
working on.
 
--
---\ /--\ |  | ----  "The world isn't run by weapons anymore, or energy or
|  | |__| |  | |__    money.  It's run by little ones and zeros, little bits
|  | |  | \  / |      of data.  It's all just electrons."
---/ |  |  \/  ----                           - from the movie Sneakers

Just a note (not to get into the flame war) but for those who think
the mac CAN'T do Doom (Or Wolf3d) they should take a look at Pathways
into Darkness. Wolf3d is good, Doom is very good, but Pathways simply
kicks butt. The graphics are much sharper, you've got inventory, many
different items (with many different uses), containers, puzzles to solve
traps to avoid and a whole lot more. What you all should be asking, is
when will they make a port of Pathways over to the PC ;)

Scott

(Please post all flames to /dev/null)
-- 
Pessimists see the glass half full,  !  (__)   _ the cow says  "fishtank"
Optimists see the glass half empty,  !  ( oo  /
Realists know they're going to have  !  /\_|        Scott J. Lopez
    to wash the damn glass.          !        lop...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu

Matt Clayton (clay...@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: 	Seems as though DOOM has taken over the computer world!  As a dedicated
: Mac user the game is good enough to make me consider buying a clone, if
: they didn't suck in so many other ways...certainly the BEST DAMN computer
: game I've ever seen.
: 	 I've seen a few people asking the question, but no answers...anyone
: hear about a possible Mac version of DOOM or do I have to wait until the
: PowerPC comes out and run it in emulation?

Play Pathways Into Darkness. The graphics are much higher resolution, and
the game play is more realistic (to my point of view)