🚀 go-pugleaf

c...@jerry.psu.edu writes:

>in number: say nearly any competitive sport.  In my humble opinion, its
>everyday things like sports and economic competition that repeatedly drive
>into our minds that stronger, taller, richer people are better than the rest
>of us.  There will never be commorodity (sp?) or mutual respect as long as
>*competition* remains our favorite pastime.  *Competition* by definition
>implies winner and loser and better and lesser.  Period.

That's simply because, biologically seen, they _are_.
The human race became top dog on this place because of its high intelligence
(relatively, anyway :) and agressiveness.
Just because we've been civilized for about 4000 years, do you think we loose
our agressiveness? If we ever do (in a few tenthousand years, and the race won't
survive that long), we'ld just become cabbage...

Ciao,
Klaus

PS: Yeah, ugly opinion, isn't it :)
    Look at it from the biological point of view - not the wishful society one.
---
Klaus Breuer, Rudelsweiher Str. 6b, 91054 Erlangen, Germany
"Geez, I need a _reason_ for everything?"    -- Calvin
"Should I or shouldn't I? Too late, I did!"  -- Hobbes

In article <2gv8g1$o...@genesis.ait.psu.edu>, c...@jerry.psu.edu writes:
> 
> I think a simple way of proving or disproving if a violent game causes
> violent behavior is to look at the ratio of Doom players to the wackos in 
> mainstream society (not Nazis or the Crusades) that have taken automatic 
> weapons to Post Offices (i.e. any scenario even remotely comparable in 
> violence level).  The ratio is probably thousands to a few dozen.
> 
> Nope not much of a comparison there so the game probably wasn't a cause for
> such occurences.
> 
> Now if you want to count all the less dramatic crimes like muggings and
> assualts (thousands) and other general disrespetful behavior, 
> then you must find some mainstream pastime that matches
> in number: say nearly any competitive sport.  In my humble opinion, its
> everyday things like sports and economic competition that repeatedly drive
> into our minds that stronger, taller, richer people are better than the rest
> of us.  There will never be commorodity (sp?) or mutual respect as long as
> *competition* remains our favorite pastime.  *Competition* by definition
> implies winner and loser and better and lesser.  Period.
> ===============================================================
> Clark A. Janes    Applied Research Lab   Penn State University
> 

So... competition == cause of crime.

What a load of leftest crap.  Competition is what has made the
United States the greatest country on Earth.  Period.  More people
want to come to this country than any other and even though
we have had hard economic times the last few years we are still
stronger than ANY other country.  Period.  Competition drives the
force that has made this country great - business.  Without
competition you have socialism/communism and freedom of the
individual disappears.  In this country everyone has the oppuruntity
to succeed or fail, thus winners and losers but losing doesn't
mean you are a loser, it means you are some shortcomings that must
be overcome.  Losing makes you stronger in character and spirit unless
you are a whiner that gives up when the going gets tough.  Winning
and losing are the things that make life worth living.  

IMHO the cause of crime on its most base level is laziness, the 
lack of wanting to work for a living, wanting to get something 
for nothing, maybe even a lack of a competitve spirit.
When you say that when a hoodlum commits a crime against a person it 
is because life's competition is too much for him, you insult everyone
who works hard for a living.  Why should we get rid of the driving force
of this country because lowlifes can't cope, why should we bring DOWN
society to the criminals' level instead of insisting that the criminals
RAISE up to mainstream society's level.  Bashing the rich does nothing
but endorse the socialist life style, the so called rich employ over 70%
of the nation's workforce, they are small business. Bash them, hurt them
and you are bashing and hurting 70% of the working people of this country.

SO in your ideal world there is no economic competition and no sports.
I guess after a hard day on the collective farm the citizens of your
world would not relax and watch the game on tv(because sports would be a 
crime against the STATE) but would sit around and discuss how great a 
world they live in where there is no opportunity to succeed individually,
thus the fear of competition and failure has been overcome.

I suggest you come on down from that ivory tower you're sitting in and
join the real world.

Are you going to reply and debate what I have said in this post?  That
sounds to me like you'll be competitive, uh oh that might make you
go into a life of crime. ;-)

Regards,

Ted
***********************
* My views are my own *
***********************

In article <1994Jan14.1...@berlioz.nsc.com>, tnu...@spcfs2.nsc.com (Ted Nutter) writes:
> 
> In article <2gv8g1$o...@genesis.ait.psu.edu>, c...@jerry.psu.edu writes:
> > in number: say nearly any competitive sport.  In my humble opinion, its
> > everyday things like sports and economic competition that repeatedly drive
> > into our minds that stronger, taller, richer people are better than the rest
> > of us.  There will never be commorodity (sp?) or mutual respect as long as
> > *competition* remains our favorite pastime.  *Competition* by definition
> > implies winner and loser and better and lesser.  Period.
>
> So... competition == cause of crime.

I didn't see where he said that.

> What a load of leftest crap.  Competition is what has made the
> United States the greatest country on Earth.  Period.  More people

Great statement, if only the US *were* the greatest country on Earth.
Everybody knows that the greatest country is Canada.  Would you like
to back that statement up?

> want to come to this country than any other and even though
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Show me some stats.

> we have had hard economic times the last few years we are still
> stronger than ANY other country.  Period.  Competition drives the
> force that has made this country great - business.  Without
> competition you have socialism/communism and freedom of the

Not necessarily.  In many ways, the US is communist (or, the "ideal US"
is communist).  Just think - equal work for equal pay.  That's pretty much
the way communism works...  Just substitute a home and food for "pay".

> individual disappears.  In this country everyone has the oppuruntity
> to succeed or fail, thus winners and losers but losing doesn't

Does losing make you a winner?

> mean you are a loser, it means you are some shortcomings that must
> be overcome.  Losing makes you stronger in character and spirit unless
> you are a whiner that gives up when the going gets tough.  Winning
> and losing are the things that make life worth living.

Which is why most people get depressed when they lose - the bigger the loss
the more depressed they get.

> IMHO the cause of crime on its most base level is laziness, the 
> lack of wanting to work for a living, wanting to get something 
> for nothing, maybe even a lack of a competitve spirit.

I disagree.  When I do something that I want to hide from someone (be it
some authority or somebody else), I usually do it more for the challenge
than for any benefits I might receive.

> When you say that when a hoodlum commits a crime against a person it 
> is because life's competition is too much for him, you insult everyone
> who works hard for a living.  Why should we get rid of the driving force
> of this country because lowlifes can't cope, why should we bring DOWN
                          ^^^^^^^^
I didn't think that there were any "losers" in your society?

> society to the criminals' level instead of insisting that the criminals
> RAISE up to mainstream society's level.  Bashing the rich does nothing
> but endorse the socialist life style, the so called rich employ over 70%
> of the nation's workforce, they are small business. Bash them, hurt them
> and you are bashing and hurting 70% of the working people of this country.

The rich employ over 70%, you say?  What would be wrong with having no
rich people?  You'd have more competition, but then you want competition...
I suppose you also like having some rich guy control your life.  But I
thought that the big thing in the US was freedom?

> SO in your ideal world there is no economic competition and no sports.
> I guess after a hard day on the collective farm the citizens of your
> world would not relax and watch the game on tv(because sports would be a 
> crime against the STATE) but would sit around and discuss how great a 
> world they live in where there is no opportunity to succeed individually,
> thus the fear of competition and failure has been overcome.

He said that there will never be mutual respect as long as competition
remains our FAVOURITE PASTIME (caps mine).  He didn't say that competition
is evil, just that too much is detrimental.

> I suggest you come on down from that ivory tower you're sitting in and
> join the real world.

If he's in an ivory tower, you must be his neighbour from a couple of 
floors up.

> Are you going to reply and debate what I have said in this post?  That
> sounds to me like you'll be competitive, uh oh that might make you
> go into a life of crime. ;-)

"Favourite pastime", remember.  Coupled with a lack of self-control, I
might add - I like to argue/debate a lot, but I'm not exactly the kind
of guy who rips the wings off of flies...

-- 
/*  0F 90 3E 44 F9 13 E7 CC	(joj...@descartes.uwaterloo.ca)
**  10 20 44 C8 42 21 08 98	 
**  38 40 F9 50 87 C2 1F 30	"Woof bloody woof" - Gaspode the Wonder Dog
**  40 81 12 61 08 84 22 00	     (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)
*/  F9 FA 24 42 11 3F 44 C0

In article <CJMxz...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, joj...@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (James Ojaste) writes:
>
>> Are you going to reply and debate what I have said in this post?  That
>> sounds to me like you'll be competitive, uh oh that might make you
>> go into a life of crime. ;-)
>
>"Favourite pastime", remember.  Coupled with a lack of self-control, I
>might add - I like to argue/debate a lot, but I'm not exactly the kind
>of guy who rips the wings off of flies...
>


"Favorite" and over-emphasized significance of competitive sports *is* the key
here and I'm glad at least one person is a careful enough reader.

When entire cities cancel their Welcome Home parties and celebrations just
because their NFL team came in *second* instead of first in the Super Bowl
(i.e., Buffalo NY,93) the term "fair weather fans" is furthered.  When college
item stores carry only "team" and sports related items to the exclusion
of promoting almost any other facet of the college it becomes very 
apparent where our priorites and attentions lay.  "$$$$" are a very good
indicator of our preferences.

Sorry, but our society simply does not promote cooperation or consideration 
in its everyday activity (although efforts exist to try to teach this in
schools, the every day inudation of competition (sports and economics) say
otherwise).

But that's way too much a digression from DOOM, a great game (and wonderful
simulator for those of us who *will* act like this in real life ;-) ).!
===============================================================
Clark A. Janes    Applied Research Lab   Penn State University
This is my cannon, this is my gun.
One is for Bandits and one is for fun.

tnu...@spcfs2.nsc.com (Ted Nutter) writes:

>What a load of leftest crap.  Competition is what has made the
>United States the greatest country on Earth.  Period.  More people

I'm not even gonna bother reading the rest. I know a lot of great, cool,
open-minded Americans so I'm not gonna generalize here. But there are a lot
of americans, people like you, who seem to think the earth revolves around you.

In case you haven't noticed, you guys have some MAJOR problems that many other,
quieter but about as successful countries, have not and do not have. 

Where am I from? Canada. But I don't think Canada is the greatest country on
Earth. I don't think any country can claim t obe the greatest. I don't think
any person can claim to be the greatest. And at least I know that the States
is South of us and the prez is Clinton. Some of you are so full of yourselves
and your country that you become completely ignorant of even the country
right next to you. 

Now remember, I'm not flaming all American so think before you flame me.


Having said that, I *did* read the rest of the post and in some ways, I
do agree with the competition thesis. Competition is motivation and cannot
ever be avoided. It's human nature. 

What causes violence? Too many different factors to point a finger at. BUt
I suppose someone in the States can tell us more. THere's plenty more 
of it happeneing around there. But its still the greatest country on Earth
right?

Kev