Thread View: alt.folklore.computers
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Started by Fustbariclation
Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:42
Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Fustbariclation
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:42
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:42
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Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science - von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding a trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital importance of open source. I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the paper.
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Bob Eager
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:04
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:04
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:42:57 -0700, Fustbariclation wrote: > Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s > > I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall > who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science - > von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. > > The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding a > trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital importance > of open source. > > I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the paper. I am not sure if you are thinking of this, because you *could* find the trapdoor in the object code - but not in the source. It's very interesting, anyway. https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=358210 -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Ahem A Rivets Shot
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:26
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:26
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Fustbariclation <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote: > Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s > > I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall > who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science - > von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. Perhaps this one "Reflections on Trusting Trust" by Ken Thompson: https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/hh/thompson/trust.html -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Peter Brooks
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:46
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:46
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On Tuesday, 17 April 2018 10:42:58 UTC+2, Peter Brooks wrote: > Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s > > I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science - von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. > > The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding a trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital importance of open source. > > I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the paper. Thank you both very much! That's exactly the paper. It's brilliant because it puts it so simply, and it is even more relevant today than it was when written.
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Bob Eager
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:16
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:16
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 02:46:30 -0700, Peter Brooks wrote: > On Tuesday, 17 April 2018 10:42:58 UTC+2, Peter Brooks wrote: >> Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s >> >> I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall >> who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science >> - von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. >> >> The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding a >> trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital importance >> of open source. >> >> I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the paper. > > Thank you both very much! That's exactly the paper. > > It's brilliant because it puts it so simply, and it is even more > relevant today than it was when written. I think that Turing Lecture was based on an earlier paper, which I remember reading a year or two earlier. I can't find it yet, though. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Michael Cardell Widerkrantz
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:59
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:59
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Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx>, 2018-04-17 10:16 (+0000): > I think that Turing Lecture was based on an earlier paper, which I > remember reading a year or two earlier. I can't find it yet, though. The original paper is probably "Multics Security Evaluation: Vulnerability Analysis" by Karger and Schell from 1974: http://hack.org/texts/karg74.pdf They wrote a new paper, "Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics Security Evaluation", that is also worth a read: http://hack.org/texts/classic-multics.pdf -- MC, http://hack.org/mc/ XMPP OTR: f4c09b50 e6d7b04f 7afd37c1 bd3a077e 5ea94a64
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Bob Eager
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:02
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:02
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:59:18 +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: > Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx>, 2018-04-17 10:16 (+0000): > >> I think that Turing Lecture was based on an earlier paper, which I >> remember reading a year or two earlier. I can't find it yet, though. > > The original paper is probably "Multics Security Evaluation: > Vulnerability Analysis" by Karger and Schell from 1974: > > http://hack.org/texts/karg74.pdf > > They wrote a new paper, "Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics > Security Evaluation", that is also worth a read: > > http://hack.org/texts/classic-multics.pdf I was thinking of an older, longer one by Thompson. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Jorgen Grahn
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:43
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:43
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On Tue, 2018-04-17, Peter Brooks wrote: > On Tuesday, 17 April 2018 10:42:58 UTC+2, Peter Brooks wrote: >> Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s >> >> I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't >> recall who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in >> computer science - von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. >> >> The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding >> a trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital >> importance of open source. >> >> I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the >> paper. > > Thank you both very much! That's exactly the paper. Presumably you mean "Reflections on Trusting Trust" by Ken Thompson, which others mentioned elsewhere in the thread. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . . \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: JimP
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:29
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:29
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:59:18 +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <m...@hack.org> wrote: >Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx>, 2018-04-17 10:16 (+0000): > >> I think that Turing Lecture was based on an earlier paper, which I >> remember reading a year or two earlier. I can't find it yet, though. > >The original paper is probably "Multics Security Evaluation: >Vulnerability Analysis" by Karger and Schell from 1974: > > http://hack.org/texts/karg74.pdf > >They wrote a new paper, "Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics >Security Evaluation", that is also worth a read: > > http://hack.org/texts/classic-multics.pdf 404, not found.
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Anne Lynn Wheeler
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:25
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:25
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no source code, there is the 74 multics airforce paper https://csrc.nist.gov/csrc/media/publications/conference-paper/1998/10/08/proceedings-of-the-21st-nissc-1998/documents/early-cs-papers/karg74.pdf -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Anne Lynn Wheeler
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:31
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:31
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes: > no source code, there is the 74 multics airforce paper > https://csrc.nist.gov/csrc/media/publications/conference-paper/1998/10/08/proceedings-of-the-21st-nissc-1998/documents/early-cs-papers/karg74.pdf 30 year later paper (at the time karger at watson and paper was at ibm also, but since gone 404) ... https://www.acsac.org/2002/papers/classic-multics.pdf past refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#42 Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics Security Evaluation http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#13 Multics on emulated systems? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004j.html#41 Vintage computers are better than modern crap ! http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007f.html#25 The Perfect Computer - 36 bits? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007s.html#31 multics source is now open http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#18 Comprehensive security? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#19 Top 10 Cybersecurity Threats for 2009, will they cause creation of highly-secure Corporate-wide Intranets? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009n.html#38 Cybersecurity Today: The Wild, Wild West http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010j.html#61 Information on obscure text editors wanted http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010j.html#63 Information on obscure text editors wanted http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011b.html#15 History of copy on write http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#59 A computer metaphor for systems integration http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#5 What are the implication of the ongoing cyber attacks on critical infrastructure http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#97 Gordon Crovitz: Who Really Invented the Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#29 Java Security? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013c.html#75 Still not convinced about the superiority of mainframe security vs distributed? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#35 Some Things Never Die http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013i.html#11 EBCDIC and the P-Bit http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013m.html#38 Quote on Slashdot.org http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#10 It's all K&R's fault http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#11 Before the Internet: The golden age of online services http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#93 Demonstrating Moore's law -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Michael Cardell Widerkrantz
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:01
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:01
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Gah! Mistyped the URLs. Sorry! JimP <solo...@gmail.com>, 2018-04-17 07:29 (-0500): > On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:59:18 +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz > <m...@hack.org> wrote: >>The original paper is probably "Multics Security Evaluation: >>Vulnerability Analysis" by Karger and Schell from 1974: >> >> http://hack.org/texts/karg74.pdf http://hack.org/mc/texts/karg74.pdf >>They wrote a new paper, "Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics >>Security Evaluation", that is also worth a read: >> >> http://hack.org/texts/classic-multics.pdf http://hack.org/mc/texts/classic-multics.pdf > 404, not found. Sorry about that. They are both under my home page with collection of interesting documents: http://hack.org/mc/texts.html not at the top of the hack.org web server. Sorry again. -- MC, http://hack.org/mc/ XMPP OTR: f4c09b50 e6d7b04f 7afd37c1 bd3a077e 5ea94a64
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: JimP
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:08
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:08
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:01:01 +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <m...@hack.org> wrote: >Gah! Mistyped the URLs. Sorry! > >JimP <solo...@gmail.com>, 2018-04-17 07:29 (-0500): > >> On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:59:18 +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz >> <m...@hack.org> wrote: > >>>The original paper is probably "Multics Security Evaluation: >>>Vulnerability Analysis" by Karger and Schell from 1974: >>> >>> http://hack.org/texts/karg74.pdf > >http://hack.org/mc/texts/karg74.pdf > >>>They wrote a new paper, "Thirty Years Later: Lessons from the Multics >>>Security Evaluation", that is also worth a read: >>> >>> http://hack.org/texts/classic-multics.pdf > >http://hack.org/mc/texts/classic-multics.pdf > >> 404, not found. > >Sorry about that. They are both under my home page with collection of >interesting documents: > > http://hack.org/mc/texts.html > >not at the top of the hack.org web server. Sorry again. I don't see any Multics, nor Security, titled docs there.
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Michael Cardell Widerkrantz
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:23
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:23
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JimP <solo...@gmail.com>, 2018-04-17 14:08 (-0500): >>http://hack.org/mc/texts/karg74.pdf >>http://hack.org/mc/texts/classic-multics.pdf >> http://hack.org/mc/texts.html > I don't see any Multics, nor Security, titled docs there. You're right. An obvious oversight. The direct links works, though. -- MC, http://hack.org/mc/ XMPP OTR: f4c09b50 e6d7b04f 7afd37c1 bd3a077e 5ea94a64
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Scott Lurndal
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:49
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:49
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Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <m...@hack.org> writes: >JimP <solo...@gmail.com>, 2018-04-17 14:08 (-0500): > >>>http://hack.org/mc/texts/karg74.pdf > >>>http://hack.org/mc/texts/classic-multics.pdf > >>> http://hack.org/mc/texts.html > >> I don't see any Multics, nor Security, titled docs there. > >You're right. An obvious oversight. The direct links works, though. Unless your company firewall blocks 'hack.org' :-(.
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: JimP
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:00
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:00
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:23:30 +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <m...@hack.org> wrote: >JimP <solo...@gmail.com>, 2018-04-17 14:08 (-0500): > >>>http://hack.org/mc/texts/karg74.pdf > >>>http://hack.org/mc/texts/classic-multics.pdf > >>> http://hack.org/mc/texts.html > >> I don't see any Multics, nor Security, titled docs there. > >You're right. An obvious oversight. The direct links works, though. Argh. I hadn't realized you updated the links. I got both. Thanks !
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: JimP
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:02
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:02
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:49:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <m...@hack.org> writes: >>JimP <solo...@gmail.com>, 2018-04-17 14:08 (-0500): >> >>>>http://hack.org/mc/texts/karg74.pdf >> >>>>http://hack.org/mc/texts/classic-multics.pdf >> >>>> http://hack.org/mc/texts.html >> >>> I don't see any Multics, nor Security, titled docs there. >> >>You're right. An obvious oversight. The direct links works, though. > >Unless your company firewall blocks 'hack.org' :-(. I'm a retiree, not employed.
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Michael Cardell Widerkrantz
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:15
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:15
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Updated the http://hack.org/mc/texts.html with links to the Karger and Schell's texts. And some other things that were lying around unlinked. Hopefully no one gets too mad. -- MC, http://hack.org/mc/ XMPP OTR: f4c09b50 e6d7b04f 7afd37c1 bd3a077e 5ea94a64
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Charles Richmond
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:29
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:29
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On 4/17/2018 3:42 AM, Fustbariclation wrote: > Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s > > I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science - von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. > > The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding a trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital importance of open source. > > I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the paper. > Here is the "... Trusting Trust" paper in pdf form; one where you do *not* have to be a member of the ACM to download. https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf (I hope it is complete...) -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Bob Eager
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:12
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:12
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On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:29:02 -0500, Charles Richmond wrote: > On 4/17/2018 3:42 AM, Fustbariclation wrote: >> Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s >> >> I have been looking, again, for a paper. Unfortunately, I don't recall >> who wrote it, but it was one of the famous figures in computer science >> - von Neumann or Knuth, perhaps. >> >> The paper gives a simple demonstration of the difficulty of finding a >> trapdoor in object code. It's an early pointer to the vital importance >> of open source. >> >> I'd be grateful if anybody can give the URL of the .pdf of the paper. >> >> > Here is the "... Trusting Trust" paper in pdf form; one where you do > *not* have to be a member of the ACM to download. > > https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf > > (I hope it is complete...) Strange. The ACM link worked for me. I am an ACM member, but I didn't log in and it clearly showed that I wasn't logged in. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Dave Garland
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:40
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:40
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On 4/18/2018 9:29 AM, Charles Richmond wrote: > Here is the "... Trusting Trust" paper in pdf form; one where you do > *not* have to be a member of the ACM to download. > > https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf Bob's ACM link worked for me, and I'm not a member (and block scripts, too).
Re: Famous paper on security and source code from the '60s or '70s
Author: Charles Richmond
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:23
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:23
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On 4/18/2018 11:40 AM, Dave Garland wrote: > On 4/18/2018 9:29 AM, Charles Richmond wrote: > >> Here is the "... Trusting Trust" paper in pdf form; one where you do >> *not* have to be a member of the ACM to download. >> >> https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf > > Bob's ACM link worked for me, and I'm not a member (and block scripts, > too). Just an automatic reaction on my part... so many articles on the ACM site require membership or the paying of a fee... -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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