🚀 go-pugleaf

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

> I can't quite remember where I saw this. May be the UK series
> Database from 1984. They had a blind person there doing text
> processing with WordStar on an Osborne 1, using an input device I
> didn't understood how it works (no braille line that I am sure). He
> was able to move the cursor, write characters, find characters,
> replace them...
> 
> Then he could make the Osborne 1 to speak out the text! Sounded a
> lot like Stephen_Hawking. Awesome!  -- Andreas

Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
(by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
never heard of that.

Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
comp.os.cpm.  It was a very versatile & durable machine and full specs
were available.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 04 Apr 2018 00:43:06 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> I can't quite remember where I saw this. May be the UK series
>> Database from 1984. They had a blind person there doing text
>> processing with WordStar on an Osborne 1, using an input device I
>> didn't understood how it works (no braille line that I am sure). He
>> was able to move the cursor, write characters, find characters,
>> replace them...
>> 
>> Then he could make the Osborne 1 to speak out the text! Sounded a
>> lot like Stephen_Hawking. Awesome!  -- Andreas
>
> Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
> (by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
> own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
> never heard of that.

Wow, UNIX and Emacs on an Osborne? Intriguing.

> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
> comp.os.cpm.  It was a very versatile & durable machine and full specs
> were available.

And had a lot of software bundles. I guess I have a quite complete
collection of software which came with in. I have no real Osborne but can
emulate it on my (Linux) PC.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

On Wed, 2018-04-04, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On 04 Apr 2018 00:43:06 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
...
>> Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
>> (by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
>> own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
>> never heard of that.
>
> Wow, UNIX and Emacs on an Osborne? Intriguing.

It seems to me he simply says he used it as a serial terminal.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

> On 04 Apr 2018 00:43:06 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
>> (by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
>> own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
>> never heard of that.
> 
> Wow, UNIX and Emacs on an Osborne? Intriguing.

Um, Not *exactly*. Guess I need to be more precise.  Unix on a remote
DEC or IBM workstation.  Dialup from Osborne, login to Unix, run
Emacs.  Even so, when the guy whose kindness provided me with the
academic Unix account visited and saw Emacs running^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
displayed on the Osborne in an old farm house in the woods, he was hit
with a fit of giggles.


>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>> comp.os.cpm.  It was a very versatile & durable machine and full specs
>> were available.
> 
> And had a lot of software bundles. I guess I have a quite complete
> collection of software which came with in. I have no real Osborne but can
> emulate it on my (Linux) PC.

I really liked the DBase II Osborne software.  When I tried to run it
in a CP/M emulator, it appeared that DBase had been hand-hacked to take
advantage of specific Osborne hardware features.  Didn't work well
enough to use.  There may be better emulators now but I gave away all
my O1 stuff to a computer museum over a decade ago.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 05 Apr 2018 02:44:46 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> On 04 Apr 2018 00:43:06 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
>>> (by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
>>> own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
>>> never heard of that.
>> 
>> Wow, UNIX and Emacs on an Osborne? Intriguing.
>
>Um, Not *exactly*. Guess I need to be more precise.  Unix on a remote
>DEC or IBM workstation.  Dialup from Osborne, login to Unix, run
>Emacs.  Even so, when the guy whose kindness provided me with the
>academic Unix account visited and saw Emacs running^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
>displayed on the Osborne in an old farm house in the woods, he was hit
>with a fit of giggles.
>
>
>>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>>> comp.os.cpm.  It was a very versatile & durable machine and full specs
>>> were available.
>> 
>> And had a lot of software bundles. I guess I have a quite complete
>> collection of software which came with in. I have no real Osborne but can
>> emulate it on my (Linux) PC.
>
>I really liked the DBase II Osborne software.  When I tried to run it
>in a CP/M emulator, it appeared that DBase had been hand-hacked to take
>advantage of specific Osborne hardware features.  Didn't work well
>enough to use.  There may be better emulators now but I gave away all
>my O1 stuff to a computer museum over a decade ago.

Did the emulator emulate an 8080 or a Z80?  IIRC dBase II needed a
Z80.  dBase II wasn't an Osborne-specific product.  I had it on my
Z-89 and it went through a number of iterations on the PC before
Foxbase ate it.

On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 07:25:03 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Did the emulator emulate an 8080 or a Z80?  IIRC dBase II needed a
> Z80.  dBase II wasn't an Osborne-specific product.  I had it on my

	Indeed it wasn't, I used dBase II on Televideo, Torch and
Micromation hardware, it would run on anything with CP/M (and perhaps a
Z80). CP/M code that needed a Z80 was often problematic under MP/M because
it often assumed that the Z80 specific registers were safe since CP/M was
an 8080 OS - occasionally this assumption bit nastily. The Micromation
version of MP/M that coordinated their multi-Z80 boxes did that and so did
the BCPL compiler we used - load the machine enough so that a compile winds
up running on the coordinating processor  and the whole system crashes
because that processor also controls the hard disc.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:

> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
> comp.os.cpm.

Since its screen was 56 characters wide instead of 80, software had to be modified to run on it; it wasn't a *standard* CP/M machine, unlike the Kaypro.

John Savard

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> Did the emulator emulate an 8080 or a Z80?  IIRC dBase II needed a
> Z80.

Don't remember.

> dBase II wasn't an Osborne-specific product.  I had it on my
> Z-89 and it went through a number of iterations on the PC before
> Foxbase ate it.

I vaguely recall some other indicators, back when I was using the
Osbornes, that their version of dBase II had been compiled
specifically for the Osborne.  All lost now in the mysto fogs of
time. 

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:

> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 
>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>> comp.os.cpm.
> 
> Since its screen was 56 characters wide instead of 80, software had
> to be modified to run on it; it wasn't a *standard* CP/M machine,
> unlike the Kaypro.

I had 7 Osbornes, 2 loaned to other people that I supported.  All but
one had an 80 column card and were used with an external monitor.
External monitor could be connected by a little device labled EXMON
that plugged into the front-panel edge connector and had an RCA plug
on one end.

Yes, the 56 char limit was very irritating, as was the tiny on-board
monitor.  Ones with green on-board monitors were better as they had
higher contrast and sharpness.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 4 Apr 2018 22:32:53 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2018-04-04, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On 04 Apr 2018 00:43:06 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
> ...
>>> Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
>>> (by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
>>> own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
>>> never heard of that.
>>
>> Wow, UNIX and Emacs on an Osborne? Intriguing.
>
> It seems to me he simply says he used it as a serial terminal.

May be. But he used a spacial device to control it.

I found the video. Check out
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16NwJwAmbcs#t=7m08s>. If the time mark
doesn't work, skip to 7:08. Although the whole (British) computer show
from 1985 might be a treat to watch.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

On 05 Apr 2018 02:44:46 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> On 04 Apr 2018 00:43:06 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting.  I was using Osbornes from '87 to '93, had the archive of
>>> (by then obsolete & discontinued) user-group newsletters, devised my
>>> own termcap entry so I could Unix/Emacs by remote dialup etc.  And
>>> never heard of that.
>> 
>> Wow, UNIX and Emacs on an Osborne? Intriguing.
>
> Um, Not *exactly*. Guess I need to be more precise.  Unix on a remote
> DEC or IBM workstation.  Dialup from Osborne, login to Unix, run
> Emacs.  Even so, when the guy whose kindness provided me with the
> academic Unix account visited and saw Emacs running^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
> displayed on the Osborne in an old farm house in the woods, he was hit
> with a fit of giggles.

Well okay. You could connect any (vintage) computer to any mainframe
using some terminal program.

>>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>>> comp.os.cpm.  It was a very versatile & durable machine and full specs
>>> were available.
>> 
>> And had a lot of software bundles. I guess I have a quite complete
>> collection of software which came with in. I have no real Osborne but can
>> emulate it on my (Linux) PC.
>
> I really liked the DBase II Osborne software.  When I tried to run it
> in a CP/M emulator, it appeared that DBase had been hand-hacked to take
> advantage of specific Osborne hardware features.  Didn't work well
> enough to use.  There may be better emulators now but I gave away all
> my O1 stuff to a computer museum over a decade ago.

I ran dBase II (emulated) on an Osborne 1 and took a video. See
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YutvbUgwuEI>. Wasn't very good with its
syntax. But it worked, sort of. :-)

What emulator did you use? I uses MAME. Still having the Office Suite for
the Osborne as floppy images somewhere if anybody wants.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc wrote:
>> 
>> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> 
>>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>>> comp.os.cpm.
>> 
>> Since its screen was 56 characters wide instead of 80, software had to
>> be modified to run on it; it wasn't a *standard* CP/M machine, unlike
>> the Kaypro.
> 
> You could install an external monitor on the Osborne to get the full 80
> characters. I though doubt many users did this.

It would degrade it's luggability quotient.

-- 
Pete

 > Not unless it "spoke" SNA. Until recently, anyway.

Nonsense.  People were _building their own_ terminal concentrators
(and then hooking dialup pools to them) at least as long ago as the
60s, and IBM already sold same then.

De

d...@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
> Nonsense.  People were _building their own_ terminal concentrators
> (and then hooking dialup pools to them) at least as long ago as the
> 60s, and IBM already sold same then.

CP/67 delivered to univ jan1968 had 2741 & 1052 terminal support with
automatic terminal type identification. Univ. had some number of
TTY/ascii ... so I added tty/ascii in such a way that it did automatic
terminal type across 2741, 1052 & TTY/ascii. I then wanted to have
single dial-in number (hunt-group) for all terminals. It wouldn't work
with ibm terminal controllers because while it was possible to change
the (terminal) type of line scanner per port ... port/line speeds were
hardwired; needed one hunt-group for 2741&1052 and another for tty/ascii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_hunting

this somewhat motivated univ. to start clone controller project ...  did
a channel interface board for interdata/3 programmed to emulate IBM
terminal type controller ... with the addition of doing automatic
line/terminal speed. This was later upgraded to interdata/4 with the
channel interface and cluster of interdata/3s for port/line scanners.
Interdata (and later Perkin/Elmer) marketed this implementation and four
of us got written up for (some part of) clone controller business past
posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm

Univ. of Michigan did something similar for their 360/67 running MTS
(but using PDP):
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/gallery/gallery7.html
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/gallery/gallery8.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

At the University of Alberta, instead of copying the PDP-8 based Data 
Concentrator, they had a Front-End Communication Processor based on a PDP-11.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#35 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis

Interdata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata

Interdata, Inc., was a computer company, founded in 1966 by a former
Electronics Associates engineer, Daniel Sinnott, and was based in
Oceanport, New Jersey. The company produced a line of 16- and 32-bit
minicomputers that were loosely based on the IBM 360 architecture but at
a cheaper price.[1] In 1974, it produced one of the first 32-bit
minicomputers,[2] the Interdata 7/32. The company then used the parallel
processing approach, where multiple tasks were performed at the same
time, making real-time computing a reality.[3]

... snip ...

Interdata/4
http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/interdata.4.1969.102646126.pdf

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On 4/5/2018 4:47 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>>>> comp.os.cpm.
>>>
>>> Since its screen was 56 characters wide instead of 80, software had to
>>> be modified to run on it; it wasn't a *standard* CP/M machine, unlike
>>> the Kaypro.
>>
>> You could install an external monitor on the Osborne to get the full 80
>> characters. I though doubt many users did this.
> 
> It would degrade it's luggability quotient.
> 
True, but hardly anybody actually lugged them. (While I've got one, I 
didn't actually know about the external monitor thing. I bought it at 
the end from whoever had the remnants of Osborne because it came with 
dBaseII and at the time I needed a db program. It was cheaper than 
buying dBase II alone. Should really try and see if it'll boot up, or 
if the electrolytics or boot floppy have died.)

On 4/5/2018 11:39 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> 
> re:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#35 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis
> 
> Interdata
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata
> 
> Interdata, Inc., was a computer company, founded in 1966 by a former
> Electronics Associates engineer, Daniel Sinnott, and was based in
> Oceanport, New Jersey. The company produced a line of 16- and 32-bit
> minicomputers that were loosely based on the IBM 360 architecture but at
> a cheaper price.[1] In 1974, it produced one of the first 32-bit
> minicomputers,[2] the Interdata 7/32. The company then used the parallel
> processing approach, where multiple tasks were performed at the same
> time, making real-time computing a reality.[3]
> 

Later Perkin-Elmer bought the line, and it became the Perkin-Elmer 7/32

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata_7/32_and_8/32


-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> Later Perkin-Elmer bought the line, and it became the Perkin-Elmer 7/32
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata_7/32_and_8/32

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#35 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#36 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis

around 2000, I was in large east coast datacenter and there was a
perkin-elmer branded version of our clone controller ... that was
handling majority of east coast dialup point-of-sale credit card
terminals.

at the time, majority of the dial-up point-of-sale credit card terminals
were small square boxes with magstripe ... that had 2400 baud dialup and
internally emulated PC/XT with flash disk and running MS/DOS.

trivia: about that time somebody did a study about upgrading from 2400
baud to 56kbits. it turns out the elapsed time for typical transaction
at 2400 baud was less than the 56kbit connect negotiating time (so any
move to 56kbit would increased the elapsed time for transaction).

other trivia: perkin-elmer was also active VM370 member at SHARE.  I
remember them doing a study of compression for CMS filesystem. They
showed that the pathlength of compression/decompression was frequently
offset by the savings in pathlength for doing fewer disks I/O (for the
reduced data transferred to/from disk).

Bruce Marshall was VM manager at Perkin-Elmer and one of the original
(Mar 1978) Knights of VM
http://www2.marist.edu/~mvmua/knights.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 2:29:57 PM UTC-4, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> at the time, majority of the dial-up point-of-sale credit card terminals
> were small square boxes with magstripe ... that had 2400 baud dialup and
> internally emulated PC/XT with flash disk and running MS/DOS.
> 
> trivia: about that time somebody did a study about upgrading from 2400
> baud to 56kbits. it turns out the elapsed time for typical transaction
> at 2400 baud was less than the 56kbit connect negotiating time (so any
> move to 56kbit would increased the elapsed time for transaction).

The Bell System developed a Transaction Telephone intended to speed
such credit card verification inquiries.  I don't think they ever 
were widely used; a plain Touch Tone set could do the job almost
as easily, without the extra cost of a fancy phone.

Since the inquiry is a very brief transaction, a low bandwidth 
continuous line would've worked out well, however, I don't think
that approach was taken too far.

articles on this:

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/catalogs-manuals-educational-docs-by-company/western-electric-bell-system/publications-and-educational-documents-by-date/blr/11685-74dec-blr-p358-credit-authorization-transaction-telephone/file

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/catalogs-manuals-educational-docs-by-company/western-electric-bell-system/publications-and-educational-documents-by-date/blr/11706-75oct-blr-p377-transaction-telephone/file

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsp-bell-system-practices-by-doc/dfmp-dial-facilities-management-practices/604-dfmp-f-10a-i1/file

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 3:07:19 PM UTC-4, han...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> Since the inquiry is a very brief transaction, a low bandwidth 
> continuous line would've worked out well, however, I don't think
> that approach was taken too far.

Here is an article on the direct network approach:
https://archive.org/details/bstj57-10-3331

On 2018-04-06, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> At the University of Alberta, instead of copying the PDP-8 based Data 
> Concentrator, they had a Front-End Communication Processor based on a PDP-11.

A friend built IMSAIs to act as data concentrators for the B1700 he was
working on.  I built my IMSAI from his spare parts.

Later, when the company switched to a System/3, he got into all sorts of
interesting arguments with IBM support when the data wouldn't flow.

  Terry: The voltage levels on your serial ports aren't standard.
  IBM rep: IBM standards state that (non-RS-232 spec.)
  Terry: Are your serial ports RS-232 compliant?
  IBM rep: Yes.
  Terry: Well, RS-232 states that...

He eventually got them to back down and make the port RS-232 compliant.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:47:24 -0700, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Also interesting that there's very little Osborne 1 traffic on
>>>> comp.os.cpm.
>>> 
>>> Since its screen was 56 characters wide instead of 80, software had to
>>> be modified to run on it; it wasn't a *standard* CP/M machine, unlike
>>> the Kaypro.
>> 
>> You could install an external monitor on the Osborne to get the full 80
>> characters. I though doubt many users did this.
>
>It would degrade it's luggability quotient.

     You mean increase, don't you?  <BEG>

     I also did not like that one of the Ms which displayed with no
pixels in one of the middle columns.

     I preferred the KayPro II for hardware, but their software was
yuck.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> The Bell System developed a Transaction Telephone intended to speed
> such credit card verification inquiries.  I don't think they ever 
> were widely used; a plain Touch Tone set could do the job almost
> as easily, without the extra cost of a fancy phone.
>
> Since the inquiry is a very brief transaction, a low bandwidth 
> continuous line would've worked out well, however, I don't think
> that approach was taken too far.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#35 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#36 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#38 Osborne 1 with speech synthesis

the point-of-sale magstripe terminal with built in modem ... would also
run other business processing (longer transaction) at end of shift or
once a day.

large stores would have all checkout counters connect to store
concentrator ... which then ran single line to payment network.  the
small store individual dialup with single checkout.

a lot of these (both concentrators and single POS) have been moving
to the internet.

trivia: for electronic commerce (i.e. we were brought into small
client/server startup that wanted to payment transactions on their
server, they had also invented this technology they called "SSL" they
wanted to use, the result is now frequently called "electronic
commerce") , was originally adopted from "Shift4" protocol ... a company
that was specializing in POS and concentrator for T&E (travel and
entertainment), hotels/motels and casinos ... seems to have morphed some
over the past 24-25yrs.
https://www.shift4.com/

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970