🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <p59htp$l66$1...@dont-email.me>,
Gareth's Downstairs Computer  <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The bubble will burst soon, so only just a
>little premature for folklore ...
>
>If a bitcoin is worth $9000, how useful is it
>to buy something at only $500?
>
>Are there also Bitcents or Bitfarthings?

There are satoshis, which are 0.00000001 bitcoin, so there's no
problem dividing them down.  But if you want to do a bitcoin
transaction, you need to persuade a miner to put your transaction in
one of its blocks, and they won't do that for free.  The fees bounce
around but are not all that cheap.  Around Christmas you needed to
offer the equivalent of about $50 to get anyone to take your
transaction, now it's back down to about $10.

There's also the more basic problem that bitcoin markets are thin and
opaque, so btc are worth whatever the people manipulating the markets
want you to think they're worth, at least until the bubble pops.

Personally, I find Mastercard works a lot better.  I have bought cups
of coffee with both.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 05/02/2018 15:54, John Levine wrote:
> In article <p59htp$l66$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer  <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The bubble will burst soon, so only just a
>> little premature for folklore ...
>>
>> If a bitcoin is worth $9000, how useful is it
>> to buy something at only $500?
>>
>> Are there also Bitcents or Bitfarthings?
> 
> There are satoshis, which are 0.00000001 bitcoin, so there's no
> problem dividing them down.  But if you want to do a bitcoin
> transaction, you need to persuade a miner to put your transaction in
> one of its blocks, and they won't do that for free.  The fees bounce
> around but are not all that cheap.  Around Christmas you needed to
> offer the equivalent of about $50 to get anyone to take your
> transaction, now it's back down to about $10.
> 
> There's also the more basic problem that bitcoin markets are thin and
> opaque, so btc are worth whatever the people manipulating the markets
> want you to think they're worth, at least until the bubble pops.
> 
> Personally, I find Mastercard works a lot better.  I have bought cups
> of coffee with both.
> 
  Thank-you, John.

AIUI the face value of a bitcoin is only about $2, so in a purchase
transaction, is its value that $2, or its current trading value?

Also, is the bitcoin backed by a gold standard, or has all the money
used to buy in to the bitcoin gone to line the pockets of
its inventors?

On 2/5/2018 6:15 AM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> The bubble will burst soon, so only just a
> little premature for folklore ...
> 
> If a bitcoin is worth $9000, how useful is it
> to buy something at only $500?
> 
> Are there also Bitcents or Bitfarthings?
> 
Bitcoins subdivide to 8 decimal places. So are nanobitcoins, if not 
bitcents.

But it is not scaling well. One result is that to get a transaction 
completed in a reasonable time (minutes rather than multiple days) 
will cost you hefty fees.

In article <p59vu0$5go$1...@dont-email.me>,
Gareth's Downstairs Computer  <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>AIUI the face value of a bitcoin is only about $2, so in a purchase
>transaction, is its value that $2, or its current trading value?

Bitcoins have no face value.  They're just software.

>Also, is the bitcoin backed by a gold standard, or has all the money
>used to buy in to the bitcoin gone to line the pockets of
>its inventors?

It's not backed by anything.  Satoshi, the pseudonym of the guy who
invented it, dropped off the radar many years ago, and the money that
people have used to buy bitcoins have gone to people like this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/technology/cryptocurrency-puerto-rico.html

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 05/02/2018 16:59, John Levine wrote:
> In article <p59vu0$5go$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer  <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> AIUI the face value of a bitcoin is only about $2, so in a purchase
>> transaction, is its value that $2, or its current trading value?
> 
> Bitcoins have no face value.  They're just software.
> 
>> Also, is the bitcoin backed by a gold standard, or has all the money
>> used to buy in to the bitcoin gone to line the pockets of
>> its inventors?
> 
> It's not backed by anything.  Satoshi, the pseudonym of the guy who
> invented it, dropped off the radar many years ago, and the money that
> people have used to buy bitcoins have gone to people like this:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/technology/cryptocurrency-puerto-rico.html
> 

So, I sell nothing whatsoever for $billions!!

Looks like the fable about the Emperor's new clothes.

Like most activities, such as in mobile phones, you make
your money by being in at the outset.

In article <fdrhe4...@mid.individual.net>,
Huge  <use...@huge.org.uk> wrote:
>> It's not backed by anything. 
>
>Neither are any other currencies, other than the word of the State. Good
>luck with that.

I'm looking at what I can buy what dollars and what I can buy with
bitcoins.  I think I know which are more useful in real life.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-02-05, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>> In article <fdrhe4...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Huge  <use...@huge.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> It's not backed by anything. 
>>> 
>>> Neither are any other currencies, other than the word of the State. Good
>>> luck with that.
>> 
>> I'm looking at what I can buy what dollars and what I can buy with
>> bitcoins.  I think I know which are more useful in real life.
> 
> Quite so, but that isn't what you said.
> 
> 

Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.

-- 
Pete

Peter Flass wrote:
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2018-02-05, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> In article <fdrhe4...@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Huge  <use...@huge.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> It's not backed by anything.
>>>>
>>>> Neither are any other currencies, other than the word of the State. Good
>>>> luck with that.
>>>
>>> I'm looking at what I can buy what dollars and what I can buy with
>>> bitcoins.  I think I know which are more useful in real life.
>>
>> Quite so, but that isn't what you said.
>>
>>
>
> Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
> trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.
>
But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is willing
to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's almost like a
pyramid scheme.

/BAH

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
>Peter Flass wrote:
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-05, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <fdrhe4...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> Huge  <use...@huge.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> It's not backed by anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither are any other currencies, other than the word of the State. Good
>>>>> luck with that.
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking at what I can buy what dollars and what I can buy with
>>>> bitcoins.  I think I know which are more useful in real life.
>>>
>>> Quite so, but that isn't what you said.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
>> trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.
>>
>But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is willing

Barter has been operational for several millenia.    One need not
trade BTC for $$.

>to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's almost like a
>pyramid scheme.
>
>/BAH

> >
> > Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
> > trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.
> >
> But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is willing
> to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's almost like a
> pyramid scheme.
> 
> /BAH

yeah but i dont buy dollars with bitcoins to buy video games, i just buy the games with bitcoin, you see? Also it costs money to create bitcoins, so according to what philosophy you subscribe to, they may have value.

meaty...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
>> > trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.
>> >
>> But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is willing
>> to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's almost like a
>> pyramid scheme.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> yeah but i dont buy dollars with bitcoins to buy video games, i just buy
>the games with bitcoin, you see? Also it costs money to create bitcoins,
>so according to what philosophy you subscribe to, they may have value.

Buying games, etc. with bitcoin is fine until the sellers believe that
bitcoin is worthy so they can use it to pay for stuff, e.g., paychecks,
infrastructure, etc.  this is all about emotion, not logic.  US states
had their own currencies until things became extremely messy.  Then
the dollar was invented and came under the jurisdiction of the Federal
government.

I miss Morten.  At this point he would give us a tutorial about
currencies and their relationship to economies, politics, etc.
He never talked about bitcoins.

/BAH

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
>>Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-02-05, John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <fdrhe4...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>> Huge  <use...@huge.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's not backed by anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither are any other currencies, other than the word of the State.
Good
>>>>>> luck with that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking at what I can buy what dollars and what I can buy with
>>>>> bitcoins.  I think I know which are more useful in real life.
>>>>
>>>> Quite so, but that isn't what you said.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
>>> trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.
>>>
>>But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is willing
>
> Barter has been operational for several millenia.    One need not
> trade BTC for $$.

However, the latest speculation has nothing to do with barter.  Barter
would keep bitcoins working but not after the bubble bursts.  It would
take some time for people to readjust their emotional thinking to
bartering levels.

/BAH

>
>>to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's almost like a
>>pyramid scheme.
>>
>>/BAH

On 7 Feb 2018 15:07:24 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:

>meaty...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>> > Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business, p@rn, arms
>>> > trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff I'll stick to $.
>>> >
>>> But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is willing
>>> to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's almost like a
>>> pyramid scheme.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>
>> yeah but i dont buy dollars with bitcoins to buy video games, i just buy
>>the games with bitcoin, you see? Also it costs money to create bitcoins,
>>so according to what philosophy you subscribe to, they may have value.
>
>Buying games, etc. with bitcoin is fine until the sellers believe that
>bitcoin is worthy so they can use it to pay for stuff, e.g., paychecks,
>infrastructure, etc.  this is all about emotion, not logic.  US states
>had their own currencies until things became extremely messy.  Then
>the dollar was invented and came under the jurisdiction of the Federal
>government.
>
>I miss Morten.  At this point he would give us a tutorial about
>currencies and their relationship to economies, politics, etc.
>He never talked about bitcoins.
>
>/BAH

I trust bitcoins far less than I trust the fiat money I get paid in by
the US government.

On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:52:19 -0600
JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 Feb 2018 15:07:24 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
> 
> >meaty...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > Bitcoins are wonderful for anyone engaged in illegal business,
> >>> > p@rn, arms trading, drugs, human trafficing, etc. For other stuff
> >>> > I'll stick to $.
> >>> >
> >>> But there's no way to cash it in unless one can find someone who is
> >>> willing to buy the bitcoins for government-backed currency.  It's
> >>> almost like a pyramid scheme.
> >>>
> >>> /BAH
> >>
> >> yeah but i dont buy dollars with bitcoins to buy video games, i just
> >> buy
> >>the games with bitcoin, you see? Also it costs money to create bitcoins,
> >>so according to what philosophy you subscribe to, they may have value.
> >
> >Buying games, etc. with bitcoin is fine until the sellers believe that
> >bitcoin is worthy so they can use it to pay for stuff, e.g., paychecks,
> >infrastructure, etc.  this is all about emotion, not logic.  US states
> >had their own currencies until things became extremely messy.  Then
> >the dollar was invented and came under the jurisdiction of the Federal
> >government.
> >
> >I miss Morten.  At this point he would give us a tutorial about
> >currencies and their relationship to economies, politics, etc.
> >He never talked about bitcoins.
> >
> >/BAH
> 
> I trust bitcoins far less than I trust the fiat money I get paid in by
> the US government.

	You can't pay taxes in bitcoin, therefore it isn't money.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2/7/2018 2:19 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:52:19 -0600
> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 

>> I trust bitcoins far less than I trust the fiat money I get paid in by
>> the US government.
> 
> 	You can't pay taxes in bitcoin, therefore it isn't money.
> 

You're not allowed to send them cash, so that's not money either?

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:42:55 -0600
Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:

> On 2/7/2018 2:19 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:52:19 -0600
> > JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> 
> >> I trust bitcoins far less than I trust the fiat money I get paid in by
> >> the US government.
> > 
> > 	You can't pay taxes in bitcoin, therefore it isn't money.
> > 
> 
> You're not allowed to send them cash, so that's not money either?

	You can't pay your tax debt with legal tender ? That's wrong and
deserves a court case to prove it.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2/7/2018 11:29 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:42:55 -0600
> Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2/7/2018 2:19 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:52:19 -0600
>>> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> I trust bitcoins far less than I trust the fiat money I get paid in by
>>>> the US government.
>>>
>>> 	You can't pay taxes in bitcoin, therefore it isn't money.
>>>
>>
>> You're not allowed to send them cash, so that's not money either?
> 
> 	You can't pay your tax debt with legal tender ? That's wrong and
> deserves a court case to prove it.
> 
Not in the US for federal (or probably most state) taxes. (They don't 
want 1) tax offices to have large amounts of cash on hand, 2) people 
sending cash through the mail where it might get stolen en route, 3) 
poorly paid employees opening the envelopes, or 4) taxpayers 
complaining that they weren't credited.) You're right, but no lawyer 
is going to take that case for free, so who's going to contest it?

And government wants a paper trail for every transaction.There are 
obviously reasons why that can be good, but likewise there are 
obviously reasons why that can be bad.

On 8 Feb 2018 10:43:45 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-02-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:42:55 -0600
> > Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/7/2018 2:19 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:52:19 -0600
> >> > JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> 
> >> >> I trust bitcoins far less than I trust the fiat money I get paid in
> >> >> by the US government.
> >> > 
> >> > 	You can't pay taxes in bitcoin, therefore it isn't money.
> >> > 
> >> 
> >> You're not allowed to send them cash, so that's not money either?
> >
> > 	You can't pay your tax debt with legal tender ? That's wrong and
> > deserves a court case to prove it.
> 
> Someone else who doesn't understand what "legal tender" means.

	Please enlighten me then, to my understanding the full phrase is
"legal tender for all debts public and private" and the meaning is that if
you owe a debt then an offer to pay it with legal tender must be accepted
or the debt is void while any other form of payment may be refused without
voiding the debt.

	Now possibly taxes might in some way not be a debt, but they look
like one to me.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

Huge wrote:

> Pay particular attention to the ways in which the use of legal tender
> is circumscribed in various jurisdictions.
Though I gather that courts do take a dim view of a creditor's refusal 
to accept payment from a debtor (which would have be classed as legal 
tender, but for the fact the lack of involvement of the court that time) 
who later pursue the debtor through the courts ... possibly to the 
extent that they will refuse to award judgement to the creditor, because 
they had their chance to accept a reasonable payment.

Ignoring "cheques" written on the sides of cows etc.

On 08/02/2018 11:12, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> 
> 	Now possibly taxes might in some way not be a debt, but they look
> like one to me.

Taxation is a protection racket promoted by those who ride
its gravy train.

Of course you can pay taxes in cash. Recreational and medical marijuana businesses in the US deal only in cash, because banks and credit card companies are afraid of federal sanctions. And cities, counties and states love marijuana taxes. You need to make an appointment before you waltz in to their offices with your bulging backpack full of redolent 100’s. Security is a nightmare, but that’s how it’s done.

On 8 Feb 2018 12:12:00 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-02-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 8 Feb 2018 10:43:45 GMT
> > Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2018-02-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
> [15 lines snipped]
> 
> >> > 	You can't pay your tax debt with legal tender ? That's wrong
> >> > and deserves a court case to prove it.
> >> 
> >> Someone else who doesn't understand what "legal tender" means.
> >
> > 	Please enlighten me then, 
> 
> Do I look like a front end to Google? I'm happy to send you my consultancy

	Google won't help me understand why you are reading very simple
sentences differently to me.

	
> Because I'm feeling kindly, you can have this for free. Pay particular
> attention to the ways in which the use of legal tender is circumscribed
> in various jurisdictions.

	As in not at all ?

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

	Appears to agree with my definition - specifically:

"Formally, it is anything which when offered in payment extinguishes the
debt."

	Rather a nice phrasing.

> In particular;
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#Republic_of_Ireland

	Notes that coins past a certain value are not legal tender so ?

> And;
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_Kingdom

	Much detail on what is and has been legal tender so ?

	Nothing to contradict the principle that offering to pay a debt
with legal tender extinguishes the debt whether or not the offer is
accepted.

	However that page does have this under the section for the United
States (the territory under discussion)

"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or
silver coins are not legal tender for debts.
 — 31 U.S.C. § 5103"

	It specifically mentions taxes so I'd say the government (state or
federal) is on shaky ground refusing cash.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/